Chris Kocek: Welcome to Any Insights Yet? the podcast that explores the intersection of strategy, insights, and branding.

I’m your host, Chris Kocek.

On today’s episode, we talk with Seth Gaffney and Marika Wiggan at Preacher, a full service, independent ad agency in Austin, Texas.

As Seth likes to say, Preacher was born in 2014 with a conviction to breathe new life and more soul into the creative process, transforming clients and customers into true believers. 

Over the past 10 years, Preacher has done just that, spreading the good word for brands like Vital Farms, ESPN, Shake Shack, The Container Store, Tecovas, Sport Clips and many more. Their work has led to numerous awards, including Ad Age's prestigious Small Agency of the Year, which Preacher has won for four of the last five years.

Clearly, there’s a wonderful and mysterious magic happening at Preacher, and that’s why I wanted to interview Seth and Marika.

During our conversation, we explore Preacher’s unique culture, including what they look for in new team members and new projects. We also discuss some of their favorite techniques for building insights and award-winning campaigns.

Are you ready for a spiritual, strategic, and creative awakening? 

Then raise your hands...and let us begin.

Chris Kocek: Thank you guys so much for being here.

Seth Gaffney: Great to be here. 

Marika Wiggan: Yeah, we're stoked that it's finally happening.

Seth Gaffney: Nice. 

Marika Wiggan: Is that wrong? 

Seth Gaffney: Finally! 

Marika Wiggan: It's taken for, on our part, it's been forever. 

Seth Gaffney: Marika looked at me in that case. 

Chris Kocek: So, you guys have been doing this for a while in your careers, right? I'd love to know from each of you, how did you get into strategy? And the shortish version, because I know you guys are seasoned veterans. So, how'd you get into strategy? 

Seth Gaffney: Okay, I'll start. A Craigslist ad. 

Chris Kocek: Seriously. 

Seth Gaffney: It is actually serious. It makes it seem like there's this wild story that's going to unfold.

Happened to be where recruiters were sometimes posting [00:02:00] jobs in the early 2000s. Marika's shaking her head at me. It's only gonna get worse. I replied, I sent in a video, they asked for a video, and now it sounds really scandalous. It was actually an agency that was going to allow you to kind of compete for a job, an entry level job.

So they wanted you to submit something that kind of showed your personality and why you wanted to be part in this social experiment before the days of many of the best reality TV shows, which I did. I lived and worked in that agency with eight other people, and at the end of it, they hired someone else to be an assistant account executive, and then they hired me to be the assistant to the founder and receptionist.

So that is how I got into advertising, and then once there, I learned that strategy or planning existed and worked my way from that seat into new business, into account management roles, and then flew to Minneapolis to work at Fallon to more truly become a planner. 

Chris Kocek: Do you [00:03:00] remember what you put in the video?

Seth Gaffney: Oh, I remember completely. It haunts me to this day that it might still be out there somewhere because it could take this whole thing down super fast. it was at the time where Joe Millionaire was like the hot reality show. And so I put on a wig and basically did my submission as if I was like an uglier version or less rich version of a college student trying to enter the working world. It's probably very cringeworthy. 

Chris Kocek: But you put yourself out there. That's a very non-traditional way into the business. 

Seth Gaffney: That's right. 

Marika Wiggan: I just love that. But for me it's way more, way more traditional. I grew up in an advertising family. So my dad worked in an advertising agency for a very long time and then owned an advertising agency and So I kind of understood that world growing up and spent a lot of time around it, but not really the ins and outs of it and he was really instrumental I think for me in [00:04:00] the types of classes that I took when I was in university and he was, you know, really helpful in saying like “don't take marketing classes, like that is not the world for you. Take really disparate, really unusual classes and figure out how to tell a story about it.”

So I took a program in university called Interdisciplinary Studies and basically, you designed your own degree. And I could take things like traditional ecological knowledge, I could take children's lit, I could take post colonial theory, and as long as I could create a narrative in between those things, I could build a degree out of it.

Chris Kocek: What was the first class? 

Marika Wiggan: Traditional ecological knowledge. The University of British Columbia had an incredible forestry program. And so you could learn from indigenous elders about how to maintain the forests there. And so that was one of the courses that I took.

And then, like, urban planning. But you could craft your own, and so I did that. And then ended up going to the VCU Brand Center. 

Chris Kocek: What was one of your favorite courses [00:05:00] besides being taught by the native elders? 

Marika Wiggan: So much of the anthropology courses that we took because the Museum of Anthropology at UBC was incredible.

You were literally spending time in the space where the, like, artifacts from cultures across the globe were but the way in which that museum was using technology to help repatriate the objects. So anything in the museum space I was fascinated by. 

Chris Kocek: So when you guys are recruiting for preacher, you know, strategists, are there certain things like that, that you're looking for, like a diversity of experience?

Seth Gaffney: 100%. And then you find way more experience after you get them in as I just did, even with Marika, also making the case for strategy teams a little bit there. Like you're oftentimes trying to find that. Yin Yang, or, what would complete like a superhero team. We probably came up around the time where there was a lot of like, T shaped generalist specialist thing.

And I think we still go for the [00:06:00] generalists, but who have some kind of deep passion or interest that they can infuse into their work. And even just having that enthusiasm or passion, what we call conviction is the core to how we get into the strategy, how we relate to the people across the table, and in any sense, could be internally, not just external, with clients, and then hopefully move each other.

Marika Wiggan: Totally. And I also think that we've done a pretty good job of hiring non traditional strategists, because I think we hire people for the way they think, not for the, the understanding and ins and outs of how that all gets applied to advertising. And I know we're still getting better at how do we train so that they can apply their original thinking to systems that help us sell work and ideas in, but that's where the magic happens. It's like what happens in the gray space in between two thoughts. And I just want people that can find those spaces. And that's sort of what we hire for I think in a lot of respects. 

Chris Kocek: Do you [00:07:00] ask them to produce videos like you had to produce for Craigslist?

Or is there a question? 

Seth Gaffney: Bonus. No, if they do, they're definitely knocking. No. I think we have an emphasis on the humanity in the way that we interview. It feels like it's both ways happening. We try to have people in person as much as possible and meeting the wide range. Part of our ability as strategists is to be chameleons but not lose ourselves in the process of our shape shift.

You know, of our ability to find, be bridges here but also like, yeah, but I am this totem at the end of it. And so watching how that gets navigated from a kind of personal and professional point is key. I think we talk a lot about C's here. I mean, like all planners, it was just like the alliteration happens, even if by accident.

So that conviction word is the start of it. Like art is. This a person who you can see cares because we have to show up and it make it cool to care about the stuff we do. Marika is the [00:08:00] beacon of curiosity. Literally, you can feel and often hear how curious she is and then a craft level. Are you going to dedicate yourself to getting really good at something and then getting out of that comfort zone and getting really good at a different version?

Whether that's for categories or types of, you know, setups into creative idea stories.

Chris Kocek: Marika, what are you curious about right now? 

Marika Wiggan: You know, it's interesting, we talked a lot about our, in our department, about whether we wanted to do strategy theses, where if there was a curiosity that anyone in our department had, we would help facilitate and finance them doing something about it.

And I've been really curious about aging. , and aging with dignity. I don't know if it's because,  just like, watching life unfold as, as my parents get older in the world that I've seen occupied where things are changing, but I think that I'd be really curious to dive more into intentional communities for [00:09:00] the aging, how you can have, like, one example is there's kindergartens in Oakland, that are both for kids and for the aging, so that those two get to spend time together.

And I would just like to know more about the ways in which society either encourages and embraces aging, or, or societies that are pretty ageist and seeing if there's things that we can do. Even in advertising, where I, we never talk about aging populations, there's never a market that we're like, can't wait to talk, get the Cricket phone as one of our clients.

And so I'd be curious to spend more time just spending. time learning about that. 

Seth Gaffney: Please don't ask me, okay, what I'm curious about after that.

Chris Kocek: It's going to feel really kind of 

Seth Gaffney: Yes, this is the yin yang I was talking about. 

Chris Kocek: So, do you bring these thought pieces, let's say you work on a piece around aging, and you dig into that and you find some stuff.

Do you take it to your clients and say, “Hey, we've uncovered some really interesting [00:10:00] things about something that we were just curious about?”

Seth Gaffney: I'll let Marika speak to it because, like most things they get traction when they become more tangible. They become more tangible when you give them a handle. So we have this thought of practice what we preach.

It starts in strategy, but I think we'll expand beyond our department where it's like, okay, let's go actually do the work in whatever that format takes. We've had a couple examples. 

Marika Wiggan: Yeah, we had two strategists, and Zach Stubblefield is one that comes to mind, and he was really curious about, as a black man in advertising and watching focus groups transpiring, where he felt as though what was happening in the rooms was a lot of code switching and whether or not those spaces were conducive to having genuine, meaningful conversations that got to deeper insights, and so he and another strategist found a barbershop in Houston. They had the barber become the moderator, they asked a series of questions to the person [00:11:00] getting their hair cut, and then they had a photographer there to take pictures, and they turned it into a website and like, that to me was a, a place that he had curiosity and conviction for, and then we were able to help him manifest that, but it wasn't connected to a client in particular, it was for his own personal exploration. And then we were able to show that, that object, that almost like talisman of his thinking, and show it to clients that they could benefit from that, and that's still paying dividends today. 

Seth Gaffney: Yeah, and those things happen organically, so he had this feeling. We said, take it and run with it. Tashanee Williams had connections to Houston Barber Shops. She got involved. Those two now have a team that are basically on a mission to find things out and also just to improve the skill set in the process of it. So, yeah, ClipperConfessions. com is up there for everyone.

And, [00:12:00] yes, there were moments where we talked to ESPN and the role of sports. We talked to Coca Cola and just kind of where the kind of, you know. culture's feeling at the moment but not in a salesy packaged way, more for just opening enlightening conversations, 

Chris Kocek: Right. I remember that when I worked at BBDO, we, we did these kinds of thought pieces and one was around moving. That moving is a very destabilizing time, but it's also an inspirational time.

And that's an opportunity for brands to kind of find their way in as you redefine who you are when you move from place to place. That curiosity piece that drives Preacher, do they just reach out to you and say, “Hey, I'm, I'm feeling this way. I want to go do this thing.” And what does that process look like?

Is it, is it as organic as that? 

Seth Gaffney: It's pretty organic. I mean, we have our different skill sets that I think allow them to find Marika is an amazing sounding board. And it's gonna actually help develop something so it feels like [00:13:00] it's in its, I don't know, most vital and viable and also just like invigorating form.

I'm more of a strategist producer, and I'll be like, “Oh, here's who you then talk to, let's make this thing real.” And so we feed off each other in that way. But it is organic versus, “Okay, today's the day that we all pick”, and in three months we all come back with that, partly because, The purity with which people want to pursue these interests is core to, I think, the output at the end.

Chris Kocek: What's your favorite part of strategy, Marika? 

Marika Wiggan: Well, you probably have heard it in the way that I've been talking, but it's really the dot connecting. Being able to have really disparate inspiration to those dot connections, like, I love it when someone brings, Like a poem from a hundred years.

This is, this is gonna make me sound so nerdy. Oh, a poem from a hundred years ago! An ethnographic study done on mothers in [00:14:00] Japan and the creation of bento boxes and then apply that to a women's reproductive health brand. And you're like, how did those worlds come together? But it's the dot connecting and storytelling between these seemingly disparate things that I'm like that's the joy of my job, for sure.

Chris Kocek: That is the magic. 

Marika Wiggan: Yeah. 

Chris Kocek: Seth, for you? 

Seth Gaffney: I mean, the humans. The humans at the core of all of these conversations. The ones in our walls, like Marika, that are going to add perspective you never would have had to. The perspectives of clients who took a job and are excited or nervous about whatever version of that.

I think I'm always a little bit fast forwarding to like, what is going to be actionable? Like, what is the thing that's going to be valuable to them? And so when you get to look in each other's eyes and be like, “Oh, I think I know what we, I found the common ground for what we care about, what we might unlock together”, it starts to keep you on a path that will end up in something that's [00:15:00] more tactile at the end.

Chris Kocek: A lot of people use that analogy of the red thread. Can you, can you find the red thread in the tapestry and pull it all the way through? When you're getting started with a new client, who comes to Preacher, whether it's pitch time or now they're, they're here, they're a client. Do you have certain favorite questions that you like to ask them to get things started?

Seth Gaffney: I'll start because one of them is obvious and it doesn't always wield, oh my, the, the answers, but we ask people why they took the job, which sometimes you skip over, but there's a reason that they've committed to these companies and brands, and there's something that puts them in touch with their own convictions.

So starting there is often times a source. Sometimes they go, because I know we can be. Oh, I like the way you just articulated five years from now without me having to say, where do you want the brand to be in five years? You know, it comes from a personal place and oftentimes when people are taking this thing personally, you know, [00:16:00] it doesn't mean you'll get to the rightest answer, but you'll get to one. You know, with momentum.

Chris Kocek: So getting past those canned responses from obvious questions, you try to tap into the human. 

Seth Gaffney: Yes. 

Chris Kocek: Why did you join this company in the first place? Or why'd you take the job, like you said? 

Marika Wiggan: Sometimes I like to start with perceptions, but I ask some from a perspective of what do people get wrong? Like, what do people not understand?

What is getting, like, lost in, in the narrative or communication? And when you ask what people get wrong about your brand, I think a lot of times you start to unpack the unknowing personally held beliefs about a company that they want to change. But if you were to ask it from the positive side, you would never get there.

Chris Kocek: Is there a brand that either of you can think of that comes to mind where they said, People think this and we are so not that. We are way over here. I wish people knew that about us. 

Seth Gaffney: Well, I mean, [00:17:00] Marika led some work for The Container Store that came into my mind where I think they felt like maybe they were too perfectionist and maybe unapproachable because of it. Organization, you know? And I think that there is a way to get them in touch with, like, some of that the emotion behind it that everyone can get in a before and after shot of a junk drawer or, you know, a closet and helping people. not be intimidated by that challenge and thus the Container Stores version. I think that was something that just 

Marika Wiggan: Yeah, that was a great one. What also comes to mind for me was WeTransfer. And by the very nature of its name, it has belied the problem for them, where they think that that is a company that's only designed to transfer files.

Chris Kocek: Mm hmm. 

Marika Wiggan: And there was so much more inside of what the company was offering for creatives that they felt like, while they had great name awareness, In fact, what the company [00:18:00] did was getting lost simply by a name that said so much without saying anything at all. 

Chris Kocek: Yeah, there's a place here in Austin called Teacher Heaven, and there's a line built into the store underneath of this that says, “not just for teachers.”

I think they realized that at a certain point, that like, maybe we need to broaden the audience and make people realize there's more to us than just teachers. So I love, I love that example, and with WeTransfer. Seth, we were talking the other day about Vital Farms and how you kind of had to convince them of the importance of a villain.

Did I get that right? 

Seth Gaffney: Yeah, to have an enemy, to not necessarily have a chip on your shoulder, or make that some kind of disruptor tone that would feel unnatural. But a lot of our work started with all of the reasons to believe, which is just a list of impossible to argue great things about a brand that they are rightly proud of, that you would assume every other brand that has happy hens [00:19:00] and sunshine on their cartons to their ads also has. Right? And so I think we just felt like you couldn't have a campaign without some level of comparison or we use the word “awakening”. It's something you didn't know. And so we ran pretty casual focus groups for that one and talked about some of the distinguishing factors between, of course, factory farms, but also cage free eggs. That sounds pretty good. Free range. Wow. You know, and pasture raised, which is what Vital Farms has always been. And when you learned, one, that there's not much regulation, but two, what, cage free, in particular, represents where there was a lot of volume to be sourced. One square foot per hen, maybe not even any sunshine and spate.

And so those kinds of things didn't just outrage animal activists. It annoyed consumers who were trying to do the right thing, patting themselves on the back, forgetting that carton that had the right buzzwords in their mind. And they felt duped. One person was like, “I've been bamboozled.” And [00:20:00] when you have language, you see some language like that, you go, Oh, there is something here, and the goal wasn't then to get them in touch with some, you know, anger.

It was to try and figure out if there's a way to enlighten them, that is an over the top education, steeped in entertainment, that they can make a connection to. Actually, I can find a different shortcut to picking eggs, rather than become some new wild, you know, advocate or activist in the aisle.

Chris Kocek: When you've been working on a project Marika, have you you know found this little nugget or this different angle that isn't obvious. 

Marika Wiggan: Yeah, so Tommy John is a great example of there are so many reasons to believe in why their underwear is exceptional, from the technology they use, from the fabrics, they were sort of cutting edge at that time in terms of no bunching up, no riding. But I think it was not one particular feature in [00:21:00] specific, but all of them in their total.

And the idea that the first thing you should put on shouldn't be the last thing you think about. And then when you think about when you're going through your day and you're making big adjustments, it's noticeable to everyone around you. And so it was the focusing on the problem of the big adjustment that became the crux of the campaign, not telling any one particular feature.

And that was just a great job of, like, refocusing the benefit of this as opposed to looking at all of the specific differentiators. Similarly, when they launched their women's underwear, we got to do the same type of research as well. And while men are going through the world with these really large, grand adjustments, women are being micro assaulted by uncomfortable underwear.

So whether it's, like, the VPL, visible panty line, or anything like that, where it's these moments throughout their day. So, hiding in elevators to fix your underwear, standing in between car doors, it was, when men [00:22:00] had big adjustments, women had these micro adjustments that they were dealing with. And rather than just focusing on the different types of gusset or things like that, we were able to talk about something totally specific and relatable, that was really the benefit. 

Chris Kocek: So how did you get into those kinds of details? Was that through focus groups that you found out? Had you heard the term VPL before? That's a new one for me. 

Marika Wiggan: Yes. I think in the undie industry, VPL is a big, a big topic. 

Chris Kocek: Okay. And I like, what was it? Assaulted by micro adjustments?

Marika Wiggan: Yes! We talked to women who were teachers, and if they wore the wrong underwear with the clothes that they had on, standing in front of a class of kids, that's painful, because you are going to get teased, there are going to be whispers, and so the act of having to adjust yourself so as to not be visible to a group of students, where men didn't have that same level of awareness of the problem, they just knew they were uncomfortable, the level of [00:23:00] conscientiousness that women were talking about when it came to the right type of underwear for the right outfit was just really fascinating. 

Seth Gaffney: Yeah, you managed to like, get them to relate to the problem before just skipping to the solution. Just by, if you skip to the solution no one's ready to acknowledge it's them. And you know, they're not in a mode of going, oh let me see which one has the best features. They're gonna go another year without changing the thing in their drawer, you know.

And so I think that was sometimes the problem solution, like there's some formulas that help people towards those reframes.

Chris Kocek: So does every project at Preacher involve some kind of talking to consumers to kind of get into their heads, hear their language, understand what's going on with the problem?

Seth Gaffney: Totally. I mean, it's not all formalized. Oftentimes it's scrappy versus massively rigorous. Some things like just sticking your head over the [00:24:00] years. And one of the ones that stuck in the mind is if you're going to have a conversation. with any kind of company, brand, or client. Find a way to either become its consumer, you know, its visitor, its whatever, or, and or, get in touch with those people. Ideally even the fans from the start who will be excited to tell you about what makes them special. 

Chris Kocek: And underwear is potentially a difficult topic. It's kind of like, you know, maybe not as difficult as Pepto Bismol, right? Or an antacid where you're talking about your digestive system. But it's not something that in everyday conversation you get together and say, man, I got to tell you about what's going on with my underwear right now.

How do you get people in those situations in a focus group to start to open up and talk about the intimate parts of their lives like that? 

Marika Wiggan: It definitely starts with a great moderator. And if you're not leading those moderations, you wish yourself [00:25:00] being really clear on who that person is and being prepped together.

And it's also sort of setting in context. So, for the women's underwear focus groups we did, it was in these really beautiful living rooms. It didn't feel like a focus group. It felt like just a group of ladies having a conversation. I would say that for men and for women, it was just different worlds when talking about underwear.

Women were ready to let it rip. 

Seth Gaffney: I think sometimes you just, you can point to something more universal or that you see and then you can feel like observational first before you kind of take it and give your personal narrative. At the time we started, there had been articles about manspreading. On the subway, taking up space, and it became enough of a term, not like it broke pop culture.

But that became something we could all look at and be like, Not me, oh it me, like, but my versions might look like this, you know? And then, even we had guys in the [00:26:00] office where we were just like, name your adjustment, like what, bring a creative spin to that, you know? What's the one that you do?

And it's, you know, you get to kind of feel less judged. Or even more, you know, celebrated for being open about it. 

Chris Kocek: So giving names to the types of adjustments they would do with their underwear to get comfortable. 

Seth Gaffney: Yeah, totally. There are many. Too much for this podcast. 

Chris Kocek: That's funny. Have you guys ever worked on a product or a service where you felt like there's just really no clear point of differentiation here, right?

It's we're gonna have to do something at the brand level because we can't talk about any features or any benefits. It's that's just the category that you know, there's there's no point of differentiation 

Seth Gaffney: Yes, right Yes Often I think sometimes like lifestyle areas tend to go that it could be in spirits. It could be in fashion. It could be and you you at least go in I think all with a [00:27:00] shared understanding that we're going to have to create a world, a voice, a feeling, find a personality difference that becomes a value signal that becomes a, you know, entry point to maybe some benefits that didn't exist previously, but yeah, I would say not the most, most often, but it's definitely, it definitely comes out.

Marika Wiggan: Yeah, and I mean, I think it's pretty common in our industry to have clients say, When we come back with thinking and then they say, but are we the only brand or company that can say that? And the argument that I always try to bring to those conversations is no, but you can be the first. And I think that being the first to a thought or an insight or a way of looking at the world is equally as valuable as a clear point of differentiation.

Because I think that sort of sets the tone and intention for a brand as their differentiators, how they look at the world. It's a harder battle to win. Because there, there always has to be something special. But I, [00:28:00] I truly think that if you can be the first in the category to claim a space and claim a thought, it's equally as important.

Seth Gaffney: Yeah, that makes me think of an early client I had in the Islands of the Bahamas. And the conventions of sun, sand, and sea. Sun, sand, and sea. And then, or maybe, can you get here fastest? You just start thinking about how you'll win. Oh, we have more islands, but I'm only going to one. Like, you start to try and play all those things out, and we, at that time, reframed the conversation from where you're going to vacation to, from what you're going to vacation from.

And then you have a whole new playground, and you don't get to dwell in the misery of, you know, a non-beach vacation. But you then have a context to escape everyday life was where that area, territory was playing out. And then eventually a campaign I loved called Bahamavention. Which was, everyone needed one.

So, get yourself out there. But those were, those were early days where you're like, okay, they actually do have differentiators, [00:29:00] but we're not necessarily sure we're going to have the ability to make people see, feel, you know, understand those distinctions, especially in advertising. 

Chris Kocek: And the attention span's getting shorter and shorter.

Seth Gaffney: Right. 

Chris Kocek: So you don't have much time to tell the story. Is there anything that you guys are starting to do now? I recently saw the Foot Locker work that you guys did. It's beautiful. It's a lot of fun. 

Seth Gaffney: Thank you 

Chris Kocek: Because of what's going on with Tik Tok and with shorter attention spans, do you find that how you approach storytelling is also starting to change as well?

Seth Gaffney: I think strategically and executionally, and we talk about strategy and execution a lot, We try to stay away from buzzwords like, Distinctive assets, but you actually start to think about why you might have a connection longer term or remember a certain thing and Foot Locker's got a rich [00:30:00] history, and they've got amazing selection, but they also have Stripers, the employees, who when you walk in, I remember it from my high school days and the same thing is true today, you kind of feel uplifted and boosted and like, oh, I might leave here feeling that from a new set of kicks and, you know, a confidence or a hype up that I get from being in this environment.

And so you just start at a place like that and you go, okay, maybe there's something just like true about this that we also might. Remember, and can bring a fresh spin on, and then you, you build out a story by getting more of those truths. So, the Striper is their logo, and we started to go, are there any other brands we know that have their employee as their identity?

And you go, man, I don't, I'm not sure, you know, is the mermaid in Starbucks? Nope, that's not what, like, and so things like that where you go, this isn't the reason to do it, but it's a heck of a good support for making more of the amazing humans [00:31:00] who set you off literally on the right foot. And so that's how those start to build.

Chris Kocek: Mm hmm. In that same vein do you have any favorite campaigns that you've worked on recently that again, from a strategy perspective, you're like, man, this, this gave me a whole new way of seeing as we, as we dug into it. Like you said with Foot Locker, is there anybody else who has their, you know, the employee as the logo, right? Is there anything else, Marika, that you can think of where you've been working on something you're like, man, this opened my eyes to a whole new world? 

Marika Wiggan: Yeah, the first one that comes to mind is Sport Clips. They're a company we worked with for a year and a half and from the jump, it's been a great relationship. They came to us, wanting to help encourage more men to come more often, but they had to drive further, wait longer, and pay more for a haircut.

And so understanding that, you know, we're not trying to have these in and out cheap haircuts. How do we create an experience that these men are going to truly enjoy? [00:32:00] And so we got to do surveys, we got to do ethnographies, we flew around the country, getting into men's homes, talking to them about their lived realities and their relationship to their haircuts.

And it totally opened my eyes. And we had such a clear understanding of who our target audience was as a result of it, that the work feels like it is just a true reflection of our, and we lovingly call them precision players, who, you know, grooming and haircuts are not at the top of their priority list.

It's almost like a chore. But for them, they also really love chores that feel like partially enjoyable. And so they're the shortcuts to everything. So like looking at the way that they mow their lawns, and if they can do it in a specific time frame, they set, make it games, you know, they were actually getting joy out of accomplishing these tasks.

And when you looked at what was happening in a haircut, it was a 20 minute vacation where you also got a chore [00:33:00] done. and so for us, it was sort of that yin and yang of checking in and checking off, this thing they had to do and then all of a sudden we have a campaign called Sport Clips. It's a game changer, and it's changing their relationship with their haircuts, but it's also changing the way in which they actually experience a haircut as well.

And so for us, from strategy all the way through to creative, because we had clients that were excited about doing the deep dive research, it made the work feel like it was truly talking to who this person is. And when I watch it, it's just some of my favorite and it's really funny. It's thoughtful, but it's proving a point in the work.

And so to me, I think that's the campaign that I've worked on lately that is like. Top, top marks for me. 

Chris Kocek: So it sounds like you have to do some, what I would call, looking at the periphery. It's not just haircuts, haircuts, haircuts. Let's talk about your haircuts. You said something about their lived realities during the day in relation to their haircuts.

So you're getting [00:34:00] deep understanding about their lives. And yes, you're connecting the dot to somewhere in their haircut. 

Marika Wiggan: Yeah. We were in their sock drawers, we were in their closets, we looked at their phones, we looked at their apps, we were talking all the talk.

And haircuts was a portion of the conversation, but it wasn't the main reason why we were in their homes having the conversation to begin with. Certainly, one of the things we talk about is not being married to an outcome and not being married to hearing the answer that you want. And so, and really enjoying the process of getting to know these men.

And some of the things that came up were like, they are creatures of habit. So if they have a brand they like, they're buying five of the same t-shirts in different colors. So it's not as though when they walk to their drawer, they're like having a big decision moment. It's really a color moment. And similarly, I think they were looking for ways that they could create more efficiencies in their life.

And how could you make the haircut become equally as an easy decision as what shirt you were going to put on in the morning. 

Chris Kocek: Yeah, those [00:35:00] those moments for me are kind of those mmm, like the little candies, right? You just you have and you're like this is so good Seth do you have anything like that from recent memory where you're just like wow, that's that's new.

That's a different angle. I've never been in someone's sock drawer like that before.

Seth Gaffney: Let's see, I mean, a lot of the stuff that's been getting me excited recently is like, is getting in touch with employees of, and then we talk about Foot Locker and the Stripers and their lived reality, or Marika's talking about Sport Clips, she also has done amazingly deep work with their stylists. And you start to just see themes.

You start to go, oh my god, if we do this right, there's such a clear win win. If we treat stylists and move them from, “I need this job to I want this job.” If we move guys from I need a haircut to I want this haircut. Now we're talking about this whole space of desire. What do we unlock with that, right? And so I think the same thing.

I just brought up Foot Locker [00:36:00] . Okay. A more human experience. What would that actually look like? It doesn't mean we reject tech and omnichannel stuff. It's more just, what are the touches about this that make you elevate a shared passion for sneakers? And start to go less from head to toe style, but foot to head style.

And then you, once you get, this language just builds in a way that I think becomes, a way of aligning a lot of the parties we work with. So I think some of the things that I've been most excited about recently, like when we're really getting in there and understanding Shake Shack.

Okay. This crew needs to stand on their feet longer, prep harder than a lot of other burger chains or fast food brands. What's in it for them? And they have this idea of for what it's worth. Oh, it's worth it. You can close that phrase out for them. And then what are the actions or behaviors you would create internally that maybe are even worth talking about externally.

Tecovas is a brand we work with, [00:37:00]  they make cowboy boots and other western wear. They talk about wanting to create a wider West and what does that mean and then what is that, what kind of faces are you showing in retail, let alone in your ads? What are the stories that you're telling with them and how do you? The campaign was don't go gently, boots make noise.

You kind of shouldn't take up the right amount of space too. Should employees there also feel a level of, I don't know encouragement, if not safety, to take risks and not go gently into their jobs. Should you give an award for the person who fails the hardest because you don't go gently? Like, these are the, they're not, so they're not, but that's the kind of thing that.

For me, it builds a lot of energy and excitement. 

Chris Kocek: Well, it sounds like through the examples you guys just shared that you're not only, you know, making campaigns that drive interest and awareness into the brand, but [00:38:00] you're also lifting up the people inside the brand. The front lines, if you will.

The people who, day to day, see the customers. You're giving them more pride, more encouragement. Is that something you actively strive to do? Or is that just a byproduct of the work that you do? 

Seth Gaffney: No, that's intention. That's intention. When we talked about conviction at the start, I think it's one of the fastest ways to get in touch with that level of, you know, G.A.F., given a factor that, you know is something we care a ton about ourselves.

Marika Wiggan: Totally. And I think that, that was something that we were doing inherently. As strategists, our job is to build belief. It's to build belief of our clients, build belief of the people this work is in service of and build belief of our creatives. But when it comes to building belief in our clients, I think it's about generating belief inside of a company.

And so the work that we do well beyond just the advertising campaign, but it's like, how are we circulating this internally? [00:39:00] So this becomes beloved language that is held up by the people that work there. And then when we have the opportunity to actually help with things like retention and recruitment that's just another piece of the equation where we get to change the story around recruiting, which I think for way too long has been sub grade, second tier advertising, when those become the lifeblood of your company.

And right now, coming out of COVID, having a ton of industries that are struggling to have a fully staffed workforce. How can we bring those people in with the same level of intention that we try to bring our clients in with? So I think to me, that sort of becomes another new tactic for us as advertisers to be executing with the same level of rigor and thoughtfulness.

Chris Kocek: So the work you guys do, the deep dives, it sounds like that might take a little while. But are there things that you guys are doing to increase [00:40:00] the speed to insight basically? 

Seth Gaffney: Definitely the speed to belief. My approach is generally a hit the ground running approach.

So I think about Favor as one of our clients. Texas Delivery, Food Delivery Service, owned by HEB. Our strategy director signed up to be a runner. To deliver food. Day one. Not, and two, maybe we should do a Day one. While also going through and trying to source out what the competitive set is doing, because there are behemoths. Uber Eats, DoorDash, etc. So understand that. 

While, with another strategist, starting to input what are ways that people talk about getting things delivered, so that we just make sure we don't land in a place that is wholly unoriginal, since we're not going to be able to do that thing of being first or leading just in the sheer volume of media dollars we spend. 

Chris Kocek: So that personal lived experience. I'm gonna go be a runner. 

Seth Gaffney: Right. 

Chris Kocek: In delivery. So not just looking at it from the outside, but going and living [00:41:00] it. 

Seth Gaffney: Yeah, and I think those are, these are obvious things that I think just get sometimes skipped or you think you have less time to do than you really do.

We worked with Topgolf. Hey, who's been to Topgolf? None of us. Go! You know? Experience it. Hey, we had, this was Be able to at least speak, not, you know, still in the me search and you call it out as such. But, you know, it gets you in touch with the things that feel like opportunity areas especially. 

Chris Kocek: That's great. Marika, on your side, anything in terms of speed to belief or speed to insight? Are there ways that you've supercharged the process to just get somewhere faster? 

Marika Wiggan: I'm laughing because when I first started working on Tommy John, I just started wearing men's underwear. And it was just, I just, it didn't, it didn't want to be so far removed from the product that I was just speaking out of no knowledge.

Doesn't always work. When I was working on Sport Clips, men's haircuts, I wasn't going to get my hair [00:42:00] cut there, but I sat inside the sport clips to just understand the flow of things, what types of interactions were happening. And that is, I think, the baseline of sort of trying to generate insights is just touching grass, being out there, actually understanding your client's business.

But I think in terms of anything that we're doing on the internet, that's a place that you can start to create shortcuts for yourself. instantaneously, having a very clear sort of set of tools that you're going to leverage, and knowing that you're gonna, first and foremost, use any tools that we are already paying for.

We work with Canvas 8, so you know that you have access to analysts, you have access to entire reading lists, and you can leverage that relationship. So just knowing what we have access to, and immediately jumping into it, versus the sort of imagining that you have to reinvent the wheel. You're leveraging all the same tools, but you're just doing different inputs into it. And AI certainly plays a role in that. I would say it's [00:43:00] not a primary tool that we use right now, other than the fact that if you have a blank page, you can get a kickstart with AI to just get rid of the blank page. But that's basically how I use it right now. It's not like this tool where I'm having them do all of my shortcut homework for me.

So I think it's just sort of having a repertoire of places that you know you're going to get great information, and then just what you're asking for from those tools is different. 

Chris Kocek: And I sort of think of AI as the moving walkway at the airport. Like, you still have to know where you're going. You still have to know your goals and the questions to ask. And, and in that case, sometimes AI can be, you know, very helpful, like you said, to kickstart. 

Marika Wiggan: Yeah, and like, I think about like, we got really good at Googling. Asking and putting in questions and now we're going to get really good at prompts and that's just a piece of the equation of what comes next is you're not asking questions, you're prompting things to answer things for you.

And so again, as a strategist, our best tools are how do we [00:44:00] ask questions in innovative ways that get to real answers. And so hopefully we continue to just learn that skill. of asking better questions, having better prompts but not allowing the output of it to be the end point. And I think that most people in advertising are having that conversation of like, it's a simply a tool, it's tofu.

And you are the person that has to put the flavor on it in order to be valuable.

Seth Gaffney: The analysis of anything is makes or breaks. If you get closer to insight, we have a strategist, strategy director here who was the king of reviews. Anytime we had anything, he'd go through reviews and I'd be like, Oh my, he'd find the four or five that used a language we never would have thought associated with a product or what, and he'd be like, “Oh my God.”

Like, it just felt like you understood the audience in a way that wasn't surface level. You know, obviously some use Reddit in a similar way, and I do think those, you can find ones that you're just particularly good at, or communities you feel like you can get into and [00:45:00] understand in that way, but I think those are the, You still have to kind of piece together what you find.

Chris Kocek: Yeah, someone I was talking to the other day said that if they can't get interviews done, they just jump onto Reddit. And they'll, they'll look in these Reddits and subreddits to just kind of see what are, what's the language people are using, how are they talking about this, and they just kind of immerse themselves in that.

Seth Gaffney: We're doing a project with, , a group who's, , bought up a lot of their real estate on 6th Street. And so understanding 6th Street, not just from articles, but from . experiences people have on different parts of the day and then understanding the history and not just from Wikipedia, but from people who used to lease a building there or to go and, you know, after or before seeing a show, I think you kind of bring all of those into the fold.

Chris Kocek: Last few questions. This is the speed round. Is there someone in marketing whose work you admire, each of you? That you think to yourself, I wish I'd come up with that. 

Seth Gaffney: Piece of work, or agency, both, either? 

Chris Kocek: Any way you want to answer that question.[00:46:00] 

Seth Gaffney: This year, Ikea's proudly second best. It's probably, you know, less original at this point, but just rung out. History of doing great work from that brand, but to kind of reframe their products in a humble and also swaggery way like that and connect with parents that thought that was awesome. Agency wise, Uncommon out of London.

I think maybe that strategist in me is extra enviable of how they somehow feels like their strategy is showing but you love it rather than it's a creative ding. I mean, maybe it's more simple ideas than it is about strategy or creative. 

Marika Wiggan: Yeah, I'm a big fan of Mischief and what they did with Capri Sun was so simple, so hilarious, where it was just, Capri Sun in what looked like it was a noise canceling headphones, but it was the Capri Sun itself and I think there's just a, there's a whole canon of work that's come out maybe in the last year and a half that [00:47:00] is parents not having rose colored glasses about kids. Amazon's back to school campaign came out as well. Spend less on your kids. And, you know, I think it was like there's just that type of work that's coming out right now I really love. But it certainly starts with mischief. I'm always a fan of everything that they put out, so. 

Chris Kocek: What's the most recent good book you've read? Even if you haven't read it through its entirety, you've maybe just had time to read one chapter? 

Marika Wiggan: I'm so pumped.

Seth Gaffney: I've read one book so it's easy for me, you go. 

Marika Wiggan: I'm so pumped to tell you because I won't shut up about it. The book is called Big Swiss. And if you are a fan of Fleabag and any of those types of shows, this is that type of book where there is an unredeemable female character as a central piece of the equation. And I usually stick to historical nonfiction, and so this was a total departure for me, and like, I was LOLing out loud and just like, could not wait to pick it [00:48:00] up. Just the way that they made this character incredibly dimensional and yet not likeable, and yet likeable. It was just, yeah, it was everything, so Big Swiss. 

Chris Kocek: Awesome. 

Seth Gaffney: The book I read this year is, Go Ahead in the Rain, and its Notes to a Tribe Called Quest. ex-strategy director here and our friend Doug Kleeman sent it to me and I devoured it.

Chris Kocek: Excellent. Favorite Strategy podcast, if you have one. 

Seth Gaffney: We both definitely listened to “On Strategy with Fergus O'Carroll”. We got to participate in it for Shake Shack, but had been listeners before. I think that that gets a healthy dose of the reality and practicality, you know, versus just the cleaned up case study.

And so you start to learn how and where people did use the judo move, you know, within the process versus the straight line of problem definition to platform idea. 

Marika Wiggan: I wouldn't say I listened to [00:49:00] explicitly strategy podcasts. too often, but I do really listen to just interesting cultural podcasts. The classic is Radiolab. That was the first podcast I ever fell in love with, and I listen to this day. There's Typology, which is an Enneagram based podcast to understand sort of our human design and how we interact and interrelate with other people. Almost all of our strategists have taken the Enneagram, so we understand what our core motivations are. Then I love things like Into the Wild with Chris Morgan always, a British podcast always sounds really smart, but it looks at the natural world and understands, like, looking at trees, looking at fungi, and understanding how those systems work and interrelate, and just allowing ourselves to kind of touch grass for a minute is really healing. And so I think those types of podcasts are really helpful for strategists. 

Chris Kocek: A piece of advice someone gave you that you still remember to this day?[00:50:00] 

Seth Gaffney: This one's hard for me. Do you have an answer readily, accessible? 

Marika Wiggan: Yeah, I, it's interesting, I can't, I, it's, it's stuck with me, but it's owner who told me it hasn't stuck with me, but its strong opinions loosely held, in particular for strategy craft, I would say, and other aspects of our culture right now.

Strong opinions, strongly held matters, but I think in our profession, it's being able to move in between spaces. Having a level of conviction but when informed with new information and given you new insights, being able to let go of what you previously held as like, that's the way forward. So a level of flexibility in our thinking and a lack of preciousness about not being committed to the outcome.

Seth Gaffney: That gave me time. My dad always used to say, “know who you are, do what is right, and do what is right for you”, which is now something I say to my kids, which is, I think just about having a compass day in and day out, you know, and, It sounds heavier now that I say it out loud in a podcast, but that's, [00:51:00] that's a piece of advice that stuck with me.

Marika Wiggan: If we're doing dad advice, how about a little lighter one? My dad's best piece of advice was “everything in moderation, including moderation”, and I live that true and true. 

Seth Gaffney: There we go. 

Chris Kocek: Excellent. Are there three songs or, or a couple of songs on your playlist for when you want to get into the zone?

Seth Gaffney: I've definitely been like Spotify, like Crumbin mix or chill mix to kind of offset my general energy. 

Chris Kocek: So getting out of your own head. 

Seth Gaffney: Yeah. 

Chris Kocek: Okay. 

Seth Gaffney: Yeah. Yeah, go a little bit more with the flow because I'm sure I'll get out of it. 

Marika Wiggan: I listen to a constantly streaming lo fi hip hop vaporwave channel that is for deep concentration. Lo-fi hip hop. 

Seth Gaffney: No one's surprised at this point. 

Chris Kocek: You heard it here [00:52:00] first. 

Marika Wiggan: But if I'm like trying to get pumped up Jungle, back on 74, is, is my favorite and in particular the music video is exceptional if you love choreography the way in which they did like elevated Bob Fosse. It's so great. It's one of my favorite music videos and a great song to get you pumped up for your job. 

Chris Kocek: Excellent. Last question. Is there a particular game that either of you like to play board, game online game? Something on your phone or just a game that you've invented for yourself 

Seth Gaffney: Wouldn't that be cool? The game I play the most is UNO, and that's with my kids and we're at that stage with that game where you're getting outsmarted, they're playing that wild at the right time, that's the game.

Marika Wiggan: Yeah, my favorite strategist that I have the pleasure of working with named Madeline Weigel. She comes from a long line of witchy women and she introduced me to oracle cards. [00:53:00] And I just recently was given them as a gift from her. And they're like the more than anything they're like meditative prompts where you kind of look at the card and they give you some sort of informative piece or thought about the world in which we live. And so I love sort of pulling a card in the morning and kind of setting an intention, or imagining why I was given that card. I also love doing any of the card question based games where you sort of sit in a circle and you ask meaningful questions to get to know each other.

So, We're Not Strangers is a great one. And you can do that with friends, with parents, and I think it's just a way for you to move beyond. Easy surface level questions called like newscasting is like Hit where when what why how and into the feels and so the cards are just like a fast track to get there 

Chris Kocek: That's so plannerly of you. [00:54:00] 

Seth Gaffney: You should try Uno. Have you ever heard of Uno?

Chris Kocek: Thanks again to our guests Seth Gaffney and Marika Wiggan. If you want to connect with Seth or Marika, you can find them on LinkedIn. If you want to see the latest work or upcoming exhibitions at the Preacher Gallery, visit Preacher.co. And make sure you follow Preacher on Linkedin as well.

If you’re looking for even more ideas and inspiration, be sure to check out the Light Bulb Newsletter at ChrisKocek.com/newsletter. Every Thursday, I share three aha moments that are guaranteed to inspire your next project, creative briefing, or campaign.

Or check out my latest book, “Any Insights Yet? Connect the Dots. Create New Categories. Transform Your Business.”

If you enjoyed today’s episode please give us five stars on your favorite podcast platform and share it with friends, family, clients, colleagues, even your enemies.

Special thanks to Michael Osborne at 14th Street Studios for producing this episode and thank you to Megan Palmer for additional editing and production support.

Until next time, keep looking for patterns, finding contradictions, and asking “what if” more often.