Kate Rush Sheehy: [00:00:00] What was really interesting at that time. When we got the assignment from Crocs was how much of the marketing was focused on moms 35 plus, and it was really interesting that that audience was not the audience talking about Crocs in social. Not at all actually. Basically, anyone under the age of 25 had no hangup about it.

To them, it wasn't, oh my gosh, they're so ugly. Or, oh my gosh, they're so cool. Crocs was their first shoe. They grew up wearing them, and that was a big shift for us. So instead of having TV spots and beautifully produced creative. Wouldn't it make more sense to be social first, to shift from a more traditional advertising model to one where social leads the way in everything that they do?

Chris Kocek: Welcome to any insights yet, the podcast that explores the intersection of strategy, inspiration, and branding. I'm Chris Kocek. To kick things off this season, let's start with a question. You ever have a moment where the real [00:01:00] insight doesn't come from something someone says, but something they don't? That's the kind of attention to detail Kate Rush Sheehy brings to her work as Chief Strategy Officer at GSD&M. Whether she's digging through 10Ks or conducting in-depth interviews, Kate has a tendency to notice what's there and what's missing. And sometimes it's the absence of something or what's not happening that has led her to some of her biggest insights.

During our conversation, Kate shares the aha moments that helped Crocs pivot to a social first strategy, and we take a deep dive into Mexican Twitter or Mexican X as it were, connecting the dots between social media conversations and a new creative direction for Corona. We also talk about how Kate and her team use AI to poke holes in their thinking, which has led to even stronger strategic and creative work resulting in a number of award-winning campaigns.

To get us started though, I asked Kate about one of her [00:02:00] earliest aha moments. It happened in middle school, at lunch one day, and it made her think differently about the power of brands. 

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Chris Kocek: What's the first time you remember noticing something where you were like, doesn't anybody else notice this? Were you a kid?

What was the situation? What did you notice? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: I grew up obsessed with brands before I even knew brands were a thing, and I don't know where it came from, but I would cut the print ads out of any magazine I could get my hands on. So where most, you know, 11, 12-year-old girls have had Jonathan Taylor Thomas on their walls, you know, from Tiger Beat.

I had a wall full, full of print ads. So I think I always just had that kind of mindset. But I would say it was probably, you know, at some point in elementary school or middle school. Lunch. I was so mad at my parents that they made me bring my lunch because it was so much cooler to go through the lunch line and get something cool that day and add Doritos to it.[00:03:00] 

And like, you know, the little branded chocolate milk. And it was one of those moments where then you see everyone sitting around the lunch table swapping their wares. Mm-hmm. And my mom loved to buy the store brand. Uncool, right? Like not actual brand. And it was this moment where I'm like, people aren't trading lunch items about the food.

It's about what the brand says about them. And if it came in a Ziploc bag from home. It was less cool than even a Lunchable or the Doritos from the lunch line, like something that actually had some social currency. And I feel like it was probably one of the early moments where the little capitalist in me, unfortunately, was like, I'm gonna build some of those things one day.

Chris Kocek: Do you noticed that there were these brands that people were trading? You noticed that something in a. Ziploc bag a, a quote unquote generic, wasn't getting as much attention. Even if you put a bag of goldfish together right in a Ziploc bag, it's not as cool as the bag with the branding on [00:04:00] it. I think that counts.

That's a big observation for a middle schooler. How about a more recent aha moment? Is there something that happened during a recent research project where someone said something or did something that made you say, wait a minute, could you say that again? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: You know, I'll actually talk about the ES happened recently and one of the case studies that we brought home some medals for was our work with the ad council and the va, the veteran association around suicide prevention.

And Kate gunning a strategy director on my team, she conducted, I mean, dozens of in-depth interviews, a half dozen focus groups, uh, to start to understand what the driving insight could be for that campaign And what was interesting as well. There were a lot of really rich insights in those conversations.

The insight actually wasn't what someone said. It was more what she heard, and it was that veterans were far more likely to show up for focus groups when they knew other veterans would be there counting on them than they would for their [00:05:00] individual interviews, and you just saw this coming to life in who showed up for focus groups versus their idi.

Really, it led the team to just a really powerful insight, which is. Oftentimes the courage to ask for help when you need it. Mental health issues can be a. A real albatross for people that they don't wanna talk about. But like the insights, courage comes from others. When you know that someone else is counting on you, you're gonna do the thing.

And so I just love that it wasn't what folks said in in the groups and in the interviews, it was how they showed up to them. 

Chris Kocek: Mm-hmm. And I love this example of the absence of something, right? Because it can be very revealing. And that's actually one of those things that has come up in recent conversations where AI is getting better and better with data analysis and sentiment analysis.

I feel like that's a particularly human thing to notice the pregnant pause or the awkward silence. Like AI doesn't recognize awkward silences. It just assumes Well you're thinking. Are there other examples that come [00:06:00] to mind where the absence of something or what wasn't said led you to an aha moment? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: I think as strategists, were always looking for what isn't being said or, or how is something being said where even the actual content of what is coming out of someone's mouth is saying one thing, but the tone, the tenor is another.

Last year we launched a campaign with Southwest. That's a big flex. Before we got into writing the brief, we did focus groups with flyers. And it was super interesting because in these groups, Southwest loyalists, like brand levers would not just talk about Southwest flexible policies. They would gush about them.

They would brag about them. And so we had a hypothesis of the brief going into focus groups knowing that Southwest really owns flexibility. You can change your flight, you can cancel without change fees. But then we realized through those conversations and just the way brand levers talked about it, like flexibility is actually a [00:07:00] flex for the, if you know, you know, and that campaign has been one of the most effective ones that we've launched in recent, recent years.

Especially with younger consumers where there's like more of that main character energies. I'm checking RI bags on Southwest. She is coming with me. That's a pack hack. See you on our drop, Chris. It's swag. Two bags fly free. That's a big flex. 

Chris Kocek: I wanted to switch gears for a second and, and ask you, when you're getting started on a new project, where do you like to start looking for those initial stars, what I call the insight constellation?

Do you like to start with data? Do you start with social listening? Do you start with a psilocybin induced seance? Where do you find is the most valuable place to begin to get smart quickly? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: Yeah. Uh, I wish it was a seance. I am so left-brained. I [00:08:00] actually have to understand the company's situation before I can dig into anything else.

So my starting place is probably a little bit more boring than most, but it's like I need to read last year's 10 k. Look at the most recent earnings call, compare what I'm reading and seeing there from the company's top executives and CFO to what is in the marketing brief. It really is only once I understand what I think the real problem is, can I start to really dig into insights And usually from there I love to read.

So I'll, I'll usually go to Reddit and like do what I would call like an aimless read, just kind of surf. You know, no specific hypotheses yet, but. What is happening in the brand thread? What's happening in the category thread? How are normal people kind of talking about that brand, product or category? Uh, and I feel like that is usually the thing that will spark a couple things for me.

And usually from there, the team, we do a ton of [00:09:00] primary research at GSD&M, so we'll go talk to consumers. Especially if it's a brand repositioning assignment, like one of those kind of meatier briefs that you're gonna get. We'll often start with brand lovers. We screen for it by people who would be, quote, devastated if this brand went away.

And it's because they, they know what's best about the brand. Like there's something really specific that they'll have to share about why this brand is special. They'll know what the secret sauce is that has kept them coming back all these years. And more importantly, they tend to want what's best for the brand.

Like, it's not someone who's here to use this as a feedback session. Like they're gonna tell you what's best about it and they want what's best for it moving forward. So you just get really good insights and that's exactly where like those southwest braggers who are flexing, like those were those kind of people.

Chris Kocek: What are a couple of your favorite questions for a client when you're really trying to break things open and figure out what the real problem is? Do you have a couple of go-to questions that you'd like to [00:10:00] ask to to get the ball rolling? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: I wouldn't say I have go-tos, but I think in the last couple of years we've asked a really good question or two for a specific assignments that just broke it open.

Like we're, we're doing some work with Southwest on what the next chapter looks like. And one of the questions, you know, asked six months or so ago as we knew changes were coming for the brand is like, what part of the brand are we most afraid to let go of that might be holding us back? What could be versus what has been, and I think it's been a really helpful guide for us on that one.

Or like when we worked with Tyson Chicken Nuggets are their, one of their top sellers and it is their most loved product and it is the most loved brand of chicken nuggets by a factor of five x more than store brand, Purdue and others. It was like there is this massive well of love. For nuggets, but in fact the kind of general consensus was that Tyson's Fresh chicken product that you're gonna find [00:11:00] in the butcher section is going to better halo onto the products you'd find in the freezer.

And our hypothesis was actually the opposite. What would the CEO or the board perhaps not want to approve, but your audience would love? It was a really helpful guide to say, well, our audience loves nuggets, and what would it look like to thrust those at the forefront and use that love to halo onto other products?

The brand has. Another great one would be with the client team at Stanley. They come to us and they're like, we think we're seeing a new audience emerge. They don't look anything like the core, which was a little older, more male, very outdoorsy, and it was like, are we under leveraging? What could be a new audience for the brand, young female fashion forward.

And it wasn't a question that we asked, but I loved it. They asked it and it cracked open everything we ended up partnering with them on in TikTok. 

Chris Kocek: I love that middle question that you asked about Tyson, where, uh, I'm gonna paraphrase. What would your CEO not approve, but that your audience would love?

Kate Rush Sheehy: [00:12:00] Yeah, 

Chris Kocek: it's such a great way. Saying, we're not the ones saying this. We're just asking what do you think your audience would love? And therefore don't shoot the messenger. 'cause the messenger is your audience, not the agency. 

Kate Rush Sheehy: And like a build on that is, you know, asked a softer way. There are the questions that help to unlock a new insight, but I find more and more, especially as I, you know, move up my career and have higher order conversations, sometimes the insights are on the table.

It's more about how they've been sold or how they've been embraced or not on the brand side. And so one of my favorite questions is actually like, what does your team keep doing that makes getting the great work you wanna do? Impossible. And that could be how the organization is structured. It could be how a leader feels.

It could be the brand's heritage is making people stick in the past versus thinking about the future. But it's a little bit more of an open-ended, polite way to ask the question, like, what wouldn't your CEO approve? [00:13:00] That people would absolutely go bonkers for. 

Chris Kocek: Does something else come to mind besides the examples you've already shared where you asked that question and something popped out and you were like, this is huge.

We need to do something with this? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: I would say my experience on the brand side at VRBO was probably the best example of this. When I joined, I'm like, wow, they have done incredible research over the last decade. All the insights were on the table. In fact, it was the way the marketing organization was structured, growth marketing.

Incredible performance marketers, but there was almost this disdain that had built up for brand marketing. Oh, that's so cute. Stories you're gonna tell. And because of that, brand marketers on their back foot would react with equal disdain. You don't understand what it takes to build a brand. So in fact, the brand couldn't move forward.

And by building bridges, understanding what was really important to the performance marketing team. Helped my team then to scratch their back. So in [00:14:00] return, they were very deeply engaged in the, the little stories we wanted to tell. And creative unlocked a brand new tranche of growth for them because the performance channels were already maximized to the hilt, right?

Like they had optimized those things, right? Channel. Great targeting strategy and programmatic strategy. Well, what's your next lever after you've got the channel in the audience? Right? It's the message. In fact, that can be a massive unlock for growth, and we saw that when I left. We had just taken 10 points of market share from Airbnb in the US and the storytelling is a huge part of that.

We have to scratch someone else's back so that they're interested in scratching yours. 

Chris Kocek: Well, let's talk about beer for a second. I mean, it's, it's after 10 o'clock, it's beer o'clock somewhere. You did some work for Corona recently that was quite different than the work that they had been doing in the past.

So let's start for a second with what Corona had been doing. What was the work like? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: So yeah, we launched the some new work with Corona this past March, and for the prior. What was that, four or five [00:15:00] years? The brand had really thrust celebrities to the forefront of how they told their story. And if you think about, there is a spot that is iconic.

Snoop Dogg, he's walking down the beach and he is like, you've never seen a man with a Corona in his hand who's also in a hurry? And it was this whole notion of embracing the relaxation that Corona is known for as a Mexican beach beer. And over time that campaign evolved, you know, more celebrities to help drive the appeal.

And at some point the beer becomes less the focal of the story than the actual story itself. And I think that's what really triggered our partners at Corona to think like, okay, how could we do this differently? I mean, the celebrity is Corona, at least it should be. 

Chris Kocek: The beer is the hero here. Was there anything about, you know, trying to reach a, a different audience like Gen Z?

Everybody's trying to figure out how to talk to [00:16:00] Gen Z. Was there anything about that that also triggered a need for a different direction? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: We don't get a brief these days that doesn't have the next generation as a part of it. So it's important for Corona. They're the most loved fear for Gen Z, which I found really interesting.

And then when you think about it, it's actually not all that surprising. As subsequent generations become more diverse, the Hispanic population and the US growing so. Corona being the brand that invented the Mexican beer category for lots of reasons. It already had a great stronghold with Gen Z. But yeah, the question is how do you deepen that in a world where younger consumers are drinking less?

Chris Kocek: Yeah, they're migrating to liquid death. Kids these days, they just don't grow up drinking beer like they used to back in the eighties. 

Kate Rush Sheehy: They're not.

Chris Kocek: They like sweeter drinks. And so you've got these hard seltzers that are out there now. And you mentioned in an earlier conversation that you went [00:17:00] deep into Mexican Twitter. Not just Twitter, but Mexican Twitter, and I guess I should say eckes, if we're talking about Mexican acts, what's one of the things that stood out to you from your deep dive into Mexican X and how did it influence the work?

Kate Rush Sheehy: We got a great brief from Corona where they recognized the really interesting and fluid intersectionality of identities for young Hispanics today, which is these are people who likely feel a hundred percent American and a hundred percent Hispanic, and it's like, oh, what an interesting way to think about an audience.

We call them the 200 percenters. Equal parts American and Latino, and it led us to want to do our kind of normal social listening, really specifically on the Hispanic consumer in the us. And some of the things we found, I found provocative to understand an [00:18:00] audience because we wanted the brand to get back to its Mexican roots.

But how do you do that in a way that borrows. Builds on the equity from the beach, but does it in a way that is fresh and helps to expand beyond just the beach occasion. That's a big part of how we win, right? Is like winning more occasions. And I'll never forget a great tweet, I'm sorry I can't call it x, a great tweet.

We found it totally embodies the Mexican philosophy about life. Like Mexico, the country is one of the happiest countries in the world. A woman said, I told my nephew because he was bad, he was going to get coal in his stocking for Christmas. And his response embodying the Mexican mindset, said, no big deal.

I'll just grill a carne asada. And I just like that kind of no big deal. Like tomorrow is for tomorrow to worry about living in the now, like a gratitude for life. Is an ethos that has always kind of been there for Corona and it's something we really wanted to put at the forefront of the, the work we've done for them most [00:19:00] recently.

Chris Kocek: And that led to La Awaits, is that right? That's 

Kate Rush Sheehy: right. 

Chris Kocek: And that specific language, that little twist, LA Awaits, could you tell me a little bit more about that, how you landed on that? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: We talked about one of the driving insights for the brand strategy was the idea that contentment is always within reach if you just reach for it.

Or in Corona's case, if you open the fridge. And that is that kind of Mexican beach mindset embodied by a nephew taking the colon is stocking and grilling a steak, right? Like a very bottles, three quarters full if you will. Not even half full sort of attitude. And that's what we wanted to communicate. Lap Playa.

Owais is simply saying like the beach is always there. Just reach out and grab it. 

Chris Kocek: It's a beach in a bottle. You can send your bottle out on the waves or you can just have the beach in a bottle, wherever you are. 

Kate Rush Sheehy: You know what's interesting is the very first brief we wrote for this assignment was it's a beach in a bottle, which is so true, and I just love that when the team went deep on an [00:20:00] audience and those insights.

It gave it so much more meaning, and that's what we're always trying to do, right, is your first brief is like a first pancake. You know, the first one's never as pretty as the next couple. 

Chris Kocek: That's a great analogy. Planners and strategists are full of analogies, aren't we? We can't talk about things without one thing being like another.

Ad: The beach to Corona. She isn't just a place, she is an element, an energy, a chemistry, and with salt and spray and feel of sand, she shoves us relentlessly into the present, to the place we truly feel alive. 

Chris Kocek: So let's switch gears. You have a lot of experience with a little brand called Crocs. In fact, you played an instrumental role, as I understand, in their 2016 turnaround.

What were they doing before that turnaround [00:21:00] that was hampering their growth? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: I won't take the lion's share of the credit. There was an amazing team, but what was really interesting at that time when we got the assignment from them. Was how much of the marketing was focused on moms 35 plus. And when we started this assignment, you know, I had listened to the earnings call.

I'd read the 10 k, and I was ready to go aimlessly look around the internet. And it was really interesting that that audience was not the audience talking about Crocs in social. Not at all actually. There were very polarized sort of people making fun of Crocs. The classic meme where it's a picture of bright orange crocs and it says the holes are where the place where your dignity leaks out.

So lots of memes making fun of the brand, but then a groundswell of passionate fans. Gen Z essentially, right? High schoolers traveling, softball, volleyball, basketball teams. Basically anyone under the age of 25 had no hangup [00:22:00] about it. To them it wasn't, oh my gosh, they're so ugly, or, oh my gosh, they're so cool.

Crocs was their first shoe. The brand was 16 years old at the time, and you think about it like they grew up wearing them. So there's no sort of preconceived notion in their head about the state of this brand and the cultural conscious, and that was a big shift for us is how do we better match. How the brand shows up to an audience that is ripe, but currently underpenetrated with Crocs.

So Gen Z was massive part of the turnaround. 

Chris Kocek: I mean, comfort over all else feels like Crocs. Value proposition. Comfort is so huge with Crocs consumers. I have a pair of Crocs, not, not the ones with the holes, but a different kind of Crocs. And so I feel like. When you're young, you just want something comfortable.

Is that its own challenge to be kind of upscale when it's so comfort focused? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: You know, I don't think so. Part of uncovering this [00:23:00] passionate audience in social was, okay, great, now how do we actually reach them? So instead of having TV spots and beautifully produced creative, wouldn't it make more sense to be social first?

To look at who our other sort of famous social fans are. It's how, um, amazing intern at Crocs was like. Post Malone's actually wearing Crocs to every concert he performs. Now, this is 10 years ago, so he was on the rise, but wasn't the icon that he is today. And it was like, he's a little offbeat, but like maybe we should do something with him.

And it started with showing up to do some giveaways and social content capture at Postie Fest that was in Dallas, and that ultimately materialized into a larger collaboration with Post Malone exclusive Crocs Limited edition run. And you see how some of those things alongside some other well-placed kind of social led bets around fashion, which led to Balenciaga [00:24:00] partnerships, all of these things start to build a brand that has a lot of social cachet.

And then what does that do? It makes more. Young people wanna buy the product because they're showing up in the places I care about with the brands and kind of affinities I care about. So really just a powerful way to shift from a more traditional advertising model to one where social leads the way in everything that they do.

Chris Kocek: And what's some advice that you would give to our listeners if they wanted to help their brands take a similar social first approach? What are three things that they should start doing tomorrow to help make that happen? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: That's a great question, and I'll paraphrase what some of my. Great clients at Crocs have said Kelly Molnar, who leads and really has spearheaded the amazing brand partnership work.

Heidi Cooley, A CMO, who like believes fundamentally in social and what I love is it is not lip service. They care deeply about what they call Crocs Nation like [00:25:00] these fans are the fuel. For the brand. So like the most important thing is listen to your community, respond to them, engage them, and really think about the things that drive them.

So for them it's not social as a marketing channel, it is social as a dialogue and that can't be understated. And how it leads to interesting, uncommon activations and partnerships that no one saw coming. So that would certainly be one. Second Kelly talks a lot about how you can't be afraid to take a risk.

Great social ideas go to die when you litigate them and water them down to the point that they no longer have real resonance. I think that's ties importantly to the third one, which is she has organized a team that is able to quickly move without decision by committee, and they know what the brand is, what it's about, what's in the DNA.

So it doesn't have to go all the way up the chain to the CEO to get approval to do something that could ultimately go viral. There's a real [00:26:00] openness and trust on that team because they've so clearly defined the brand to execute. And some of those things turn out really well, and some of them don't. And you and I never hear about them like, you know, it's a drop in the pan.

But the ones that do really well are super powerful. 

Chris Kocek: Yeah, that ability to keep making new stuff. Andy Pearson talked about it when I was talking with him at Liquid Death that if you know what your brand stands for. When something happens, like when, uh, there was that cease and desist letter from the Arnold Palmer Estate that said, you can't call these things armless Palmers, they immediately had a sense of what to do because the question in their mind was.

What would Liquid death do? What would this brand persona do? And so if everybody on the team knows the brand inside and out, they're kind of living and breathing that and that speed to action is so important. Like you said, you don't wanna [00:27:00] litigate something or water it down or have to go through 20 different approvals before you can do it.

'cause then the moment's gone, you've missed the moment. 

Kate Rush Sheehy: Yep. Miss the moment. Or like, one of the things that a very strong personal affinity for as a a dog mom to a 2-year-old wolf, she's a husky, but we call her the wolf, is they launched Crocs for dogs last year as a part of Croc Day that happens in October, a celebration for their fans every year.

And it's like. I could just see at any sort of fashion or apparel company that that kind of conversation goes in circles for years. And instead they saw people asking like, I wish I could put Crocs on my dog. And they did it and it went gangbusters. People were loving it. Funny enough, someone yesterday sent, did you know that Crocs has a dog, Crocs?

Indeed I did as if my dog would let me put those on her though. 

Chris Kocek: Crocs for Dogs. Is this like some kind of April Fools joke that's, I know it wasn't an April Fools joke, but it's interesting how April Fools has become this springboard [00:28:00] for so many brands to almost like test the waters and be like, we're gonna put this out there and.

Who knows if people love it, maybe we'll turn it into a thing. Have, have you worked on any brands that have done that? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: I have not had the luxury of that yet, but I wish I had. 

Chris Kocek: It's an interesting time to be alive around April Fools, because all kinds of crazy things come out. We can't talk about Crocs without talking about Gibbs.

Bbs, which are wonderful things to say. So for our listeners who may not know, what are Gibbs, or should I say, what is a gibes? What is the plural of Gibbs? Is it Gibbs'? Let's just get the grammar outta the way for a second and then we can talk about what a Gibbs is. 

Kate Rush Sheehy: Sure. So Gibbs are, for lack of a better phrase, the charms or accessories that you can pop into the whole of your crock.

They say something about you, the things you like, or the kind of. Outfit and self-expression you want to put out there that day. [00:29:00] A Fitbits is the whole kind of cottage market that has evolved. Jibbitz is a brand owned by Crocs and sold by Crocs. Fitbits are the kind of thing you're gonna find on Etsy from lots of little, uh, individual sellers and some really big ones too that you might feel have a more specific kind of, um, affinity or like, says something about you that you, you can't find from Crocs yet today.

Chris Kocek: Help me connect the dots between Gibbs, FBB Bits, and Crocs. Like why are Jbb bits and FBB bits so important to Crocs as a brand in terms of growth strategy? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: Sure. I mean, from a company lens, it is an amazing. Ancillary product to sell. Once you've got Crocs, which do last forever, it's a great way to say, great.

Make a mirrors every day. Um, and there's a nice revenue upside there from a brand standpoint. They so beautifully build on the mission that Crocs has, you know, centered themselves around people being comfortable in their own shoes. That is the company's purpose and the campaign [00:30:00] expression, the platform that they've had in market for the last 10 years to come as you are.

Originally as we were trying to make Crocs cool again, come as you are, was a rallying crime for the fans to say like, forget the haters. I'm gonna come and however, makes me feel comfortable. I love how the team has evolved it over the years, which is come as you are, is also like, how do I wanna express myself today?

What is my. Outfit and my shoes say about me. What do I wanna tell the world about who I am and what matters to me? And Gibbs are such an amazing way to do that. So how are you expressing yourself? What is important to you? And it really does add dimension to coming as you are. 

Chris Kocek: Do you have any Gibbs for your Crocs?

Kate Rush Sheehy: I have a couple. I have some pearls if I wanna dress them up. My white Crocs up and then I have lots of, I would call them like fun silly ones. I'm, I'm a Star Wars Wars girl and I love the Mandalorian, so I have a baby Yoda. 

Chris Kocek: Mm. Interesting. A quick [00:31:00] question. Wasn't expecting to go here, but are Crocs big in Europe?

'cause you know, in Europe they dress, you know, to the nines just to go to the grocery store. Like compared to Americans, Europeans tend to dress real nice. They're real nice. Do people in Europe wear Crocs? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: They do. Crocs has got several markets that are important to them internationally, where it's a sizable business like the uk, France, Germany, India, Japan, Korea, China.

And what's interesting about Europe, have you heard of the ugly shoe theory? 

Chris Kocek: No. 

Kate Rush Sheehy: Oh, Chris, tell me. Let me educate you on some fashion theory. It is the theory that. Pairing an ugly shoe that does not go with an outfit is the kind of thing that will elevate the whole outfit and is like you think about fashion being matching uncommon things together.

Ugly shoe theory plays big time and Crocs are like perfect for that kind of fashion trend, and that is where the way Crocs comes to life in fashion in Europe is far more interesting [00:32:00] than the us Maybe even a little more provocative. 

Chris Kocek: That sounds fascinating. So it's basically, don't look at my shoes, look at the rest of me.

Kate Rush Sheehy: Exactly. 

Chris Kocek: Is that right? Mm-hmm. Okay. 

Kate Rush Sheehy: Exceptional accent. 

Chris Kocek: I don't know where it comes from. It just channels through me sometimes. Alright, very interesting. Now I really want to go down the rabbit hole of Crocs in other countries, but maybe that'll be for another episode. 

Kate Rush Sheehy: Sure. 

Chris Kocek: You have said many times that you wanna make the best.

Damn strategy team on the planet. Mm-hmm. At GSD&M, I hope I'm getting that right. And with speed to insight being more critical than ever, especially in the face of ai, what does the best damn strategy team on the planet look like? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: Yeah, that's a really good question and one that is on our mind as a group.

There's 16 of us in strategy at GSD&M, and we are massive pilot testers in there figuring out what are the ways that it doesn't just. Kind of raise the floor on how we can be more [00:33:00] efficient as marketers, but how do we ask better questions or use it in uncommonly obvious ways that help to really raise the ceiling on creativity.

And we talk a lot about that. Like, anybody can do something faster because of ai, but how are we using it to actually do things that are badass, uh, and that no one else has done before. So that is one way we're talking about it. The team overall is like, we think about it in two ways. Open minds and open hands.

Open minds always asking the next question. You've been to the GSD&M headquarters in Austin. We have our values, ET on the floor. Curiosity and restlessness are two of them. So how do we really always push for what's next and not just rest on our last great campaign? And the other one is just open hands.

Like this is a group. Who doesn't just think, oh, I work on Capital One, or I work on Corona, or I work on Southwest, and that's it. Like, these are people who, oh, I have some time on my hands this week. We'll hop in to help on just about anything, so people are really gracious about [00:34:00] raising their hand or, Hey, I read this interesting article and it got me thinking about Capital One.

This is somebody who works on Corona and Beer. The two things really almost have nothing to do with each other, but a real thoughtfulness and generosity of insight and information that could up unlock the next brief. 

Chris Kocek: Well, and I think cross pollination between brands is what's so interesting. I mean, that's how you make those lateral hops.

Like you said, they don't have anything to do with each other, but that's sometimes where the magic can happen, where you say, well, we're doing this, or We learned this about these types of customers. That's affecting my thinking about how we might think about Corona. Again, that's a lot of times where the magic happens.

That's how you connect those dots in really interesting ways. You mentioned, uh, doing things with AI in an interesting way. When you think about a recent project your team has worked on, what is one or two specific ways AI uncovered something or helped you get to an aha moment? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: One of the ways that we're using AI that has [00:35:00] really helped us is not just.

Asking questions up front, but once there's a strategy in place, or maybe a couple ideas on the board of like, well, strategically we could go this direction or that direction, or this direction. We use A GPT to interrogate it. Take on the role of the CMO of this brand. Review their LinkedIn and the things that they have liked and commented on, and the posts that they have made, as well as interviews that are publicly available on the internet now they know what's important to them.

Poke holes in each of these t. Amazing. Like that kind of interrogation. It is just so helpful so that you're not trying to build something while also breaking it down. At least that's something I personally always struggle with. You have to really commit to the bit when you are developing a strategy or a creative idea concept, right?

Like you have to believe it before you can ever convince anyone else to believe it either. And so I love that I can ask an outside helper. To come in and tear it apart in a safe space that not everyone has to, to watch [00:36:00] the, the firing squad, and it really does help make the work so much better. Like I would say that is maybe the most powerful way that we're using it right now is getting really specific about who our decision maker is and what they care about and what's important to this brand and how it could make something more defensible.

Chris Kocek: I feel like the poking holes bit is really interesting. So in an interview with Zoe s Gayman in season two, she told me about how she has these, uh, GPT. She's got one that's her. Basically, she's uploaded all of her writing to it, and then she's got another GPT that is the sarcastic, brutally honest version of her that is designed to poke holes into anything that she says.

And so she gets these two GPTs, essentially warring with each other. I think that the poking holes thing is really interesting because I don't take it as personally if I ask chat GPT to poke holes in my thinking. Whereas [00:37:00] if somebody came over and offered unsolicited advice, I might be like, who are you?

Just kidding? I'd probably take it as well. But there's something about it coming from GPT that makes the poking whole process feel safer. 

Kate Rush Sheehy: Yeah. You understand what the feedback will be, and it's not like just because it poked holes in something that's wrong, but it allows space and time for critical thinking.

So you either have a workaround. Or a plausible recommendation of why that doesn't matter. So the, the biggest thing is like, you know, there's vibe coding where it's like you don't actually know how to be an engineer anymore. You're just using AI for everything. I do worry about vibe strategy, which is you still must bring a critical.

Brain to what you're getting back from chat GBT, not taking it at just face value. You can always spot a brief where someone over gt it. The point is not to outsource the job. It is to use it in ways that help illuminate something you hadn't thought of before or what the most common and [00:38:00] obvious places to start our, so we move past them or to poke holes so that you can then think critically about how to shape it and evolve it.

Chris Kocek: Mm-hmm. Yeah. The critique leads to critical thinking. Yes. And that's what we need. If we're gonna get to somewhere new, we're at the speed round, which is everybody's favorite round. So we're gonna go fast. Boom, boom, boom. How many pairs of Crocs do you own? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: I can't answer that. It's embarrassing. Gosh, I probably own north of 10 pairs, clogs, sandals, different forms, different colors.

I get client crushes, so once I'm in, I'm, I'm in. 

Chris Kocek: Hmm. Okay. Very nice. Very good. What's your favorite word in English or any other language? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: Okay, so a couple of months ago, my dog trainer I mentioned, I have a a 2-year-old Husky Aussie lab mix referred to her feral intelligence. And I have not stopped thinking about it.

So I know it's not a word, it's a phrase, but like, I'm like, yeah, [00:39:00] feral intelligence. She is insane, but so are we a strategist. So I keep trying to make feral intelligence happen at work too. 

Chris Kocek: Oh, that's a good phrase. I'm gonna have to use that in conversation. Moving forward, what was your favorite subject in school?

Kate Rush Sheehy: Uh, well you are talking to the 2004 president of the Lake Highlands High School Math Club. So Jed Giveaway, she loves math. 

Chris Kocek: So English. 

Kate Rush Sheehy: So English

Chris Kocek: math. I don't think we've gotten that answer on this show. What is it about math that you love and how are you a strategist? Who loves math. That's that, that seems like totally different parts of the brain. 

Kate Rush Sheehy: I am left brained. You're talking to the woman who starts with a 10 K before she can solve a brand strategy problem.

The numbers don't lie. I just, I love, I love formulas and I love how pieces fit together, like a logical step stone. So it just, it appeals to my left brain. I'm not afraid of a spreadsheet. Right on. 

Chris Kocek: Oh yeah. Slice and dice that data. Now, [00:40:00] real quick, just to confirm, just just to make sure that I'm not interpreting things wrong.

When you say you love a 10 K, you're not talking about going out and running a 10 K to get started on a project. You're talking about a 10 k in terms of like a report? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: Yes, like a company's financial report. 

Chris Kocek: I just want to confirm that for our listeners, in case you know, there are some people out there who are running enthusiasts and they might hear this and say, you know what?

Before my next project, I'm gonna go run a 10 K and see if it unlocks some insights for me. I 

Kate Rush Sheehy: would never, 

Chris Kocek: you never know. Now, if you were talking to a five-year-old, how would you describe what you do? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: I tell stories that help people choose the perfect brand for them. 

Chris Kocek: Very good. What is the most recent good book you've read?

Or a movie or TV show that you've watched. 

Kate Rush Sheehy: Okay. I have to admit, I am deep in the romantic genre. Are you familiar? No. Oh, I thought you were just making 

Chris Kocek: a word. I thought you were [00:41:00] making a word up. 

Kate Rush Sheehy: Romance romantic. 

Chris Kocek: That's a, 

Kate Rush Sheehy: it's romance and fantasy. It is the fastest growing category in literature if one can be so bold as to call it literature.

There have been a couple books that have come out over the last couple of years, fourth wing, fastest selling book in 20 years, and it mixes those two genres. So I love that when I am into fiction. I also just started Barry Diller's book, who knew amazing corporate Titan. He was the chairman of Expedia while I worked there, and a fierce, fierce corporate genius.

It's a really vulnerable story. He basically is publicly coming out. Most people knew that he is gay, but it's his story and it's just, it's such an interesting other side to someone who I. Feared, respectfully feared in the corporate world, and I really respect, just like how he's telling his story, it's a side of him I would've never guessed.

Chris Kocek: Hmm. And it's called Who knew? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: Who knew. 

Chris Kocek: Oh, very interesting. All right, I'll put it on the list there. What's a subject that you recently got [00:42:00] super interested in and you just went down a rabbit hole because of insatiable curiosity? Nothing to do with work, just. I don't know. I just, I gotta find out more about this.

What is this? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: Let's talk about romantic again. So this is a genre I had no idea existed. A couple different people had asked me if I had read this book called A Court of Thorns and Roses. No, but it keeps coming up so I should read it. There's this author, Sarah J. Moss, she's one of the kind of leading voices and eminent people in the category, and she has written 20 some odd books.

And I spent the next three months reading 20 books. I had not read. A book that year. This is October of a couple years ago. And I'm like, I am so deep in now the TikTok algo around romantic and the nickname aar. I'm in the wikis, the tweets like I'm in deep. Help me. That's in help. 

Chris Kocek: This is a cry for help.

Not so much, uh, around you're so deep down the rabbit hole. You're just like, please get me outta here. 

Ad: Yes. 

Chris Kocek: Uh, no, but you love it so much. We're [00:43:00] not gonna help you come outta that because it sounds, it sounds like you're enjoying yourself. 

Ad: I am. 

Chris Kocek: Is there a brand whose work you really admire or that you think to yourself that is so good?

I wish I'd come up with that. 

Kate Rush Sheehy: There has to be Heinz work just as a body of work and a classic brand that had become more dependable than desirable. God, great insight, beautiful work. I love seeing every iteration of it. 

Chris Kocek: Yes. I want to have Heinz on the show. What's one of the most interesting jobs you had before you got into the work you do now that has helped you do your job better?

Kate Rush Sheehy: I worked a lot of customer service jobs, uh, through high school and college, hostess waitress, sales associate at Nordstrom. Your butt looks great in those chains and between my parents. They also collectively spent 75 years at Delta Airlines and customer service. And it builds such an empathy for real people, what they want, what they need.

Like there has never been a more vulnerable person than a woman in a dressing room where like the clothes don't fit or she's not happy with her [00:44:00] body. And so I just like part of that, understanding what people need, how they feel, what you can help them with. And then also just an empathy for service industry jobs themselves.

Like these are people who get treated like crap a lot and don't deserve it. So it probably also has fostered a real kindness for people around me. 

Chris Kocek: Finally, what's a piece of advice that you got early on in your life or in your career that you still remember to this day or that you think of often? 

Kate Rush Sheehy: Uh, this one lives rent free in my head.

After I led my first IDI, my in-depth interview, my CSO, who had been observing in the background, uh, on the call, he was like, Hey, here's some feedback. Be more patient. I was essentially asking the question, I'm 23. I am a baby. And I would get nervous. So after just a couple seconds, I would start prompting them.

Well, maybe they don't have an answer, and I, they, I need to give them some ideas. But I actually think it's a really good piece of advice for engaging in almost any conversation, and particularly one that I find more and more important as I become more senior. [00:45:00] And naturally when there's a question in a room that you're in, people will look to me for the answer.

But letting the moment breathe. Not giving the prompts right away, like actually allows others to shape the dialogue or set us on a course that might not have been in my head. So it was very specific to how to be a great research conductor, but I think it's a great piece of advice overall. 

Chris Kocek: That pregnant pause that we were talking about or that uncomfortable silence or that what isn't said at first, let other people fill in the gaps.

It's super powerful technique. Well, Kate, you have increased my feral intelligence dramatically today, and I want to thank you for that. I want to thank you for your time and keep doing what you're doing at GSD&M 'cause you're doing great things. 

Kate Rush Sheehy: Awesome. Thanks Chris.

Chris Kocek: Thanks again to our guest, Kate Rush Sheehy from GSD&M. If you want to connect with Kate, you can find her on LinkedIn. 

If you enjoyed today's episode, please give us five stars on your favorite podcast [00:46:00] platform and share it with colleagues and clients who could use some inspiration. 

Just send them a link and say, “You see! This is what I'm talking about! Insights!”

If you're looking for even more ideas and aha moments. Head over to chriskocek.com. There you can find some of my newest online courses, case studies, and creative exercises. You can even sign up for one of my hands-on workshops where I show you firsthand how to build effective insights faster. The workshops are great for helping with new business pitches and for breathing new life into your campaign briefings.

Special thanks to Megan Palmer for editing, sound mixing and production support. Until next time, keep looking for patterns, finding contradictions, and asking what if. More often.