Tara Lawall: [00:00:00] Have you ever asked AI what it thinks about you? Based on everything you've ever asked it, it's probably the most terrifying question you can ever ask a machine, and extremely fascinating what it says back to you.

Chris Kocek: Welcome to any insights yet the podcast that explores the intersection of strategy, inspiration, and branding. I'm Chris Kocek. In today's episode, I'm joined by Tara Lawall, Chief Creative Officer and partner at Rethinks New York office. Tara's been running point on award-winning campaigns since she graduated from Miami Ad School almost 20 years ago, sharing her talents with a wide variety of shops, including JWT, Y&R, Droga5, 72, & Sunny Anomaly, and more.

Her work has earned global recognition and a dizzying number of awards, including Cleos Webbys, a canned titanium lion award, and a place in MoMA's permanent collection. So how does she do it? How does Tara create [00:01:00] such effective, insightful work so consistently? And what do they do at Rethink specifically that has helped them create one Buzzworthy campaign after another for brands like Doritos, Heinz, Kraft, Mac and Cheese, Ikea, and Uber Eats.

During our conversation, Tara and I talk about their unique briefing process at Rethink and their unusual approach to building client relationships, which is part therapy session and part business strategy brainstorm. Plus, we get super nerdy about fun phrases in Philly where Tara grew up, and we talk about the process of finding the perfect soundtrack for different street corners with epidemic sound.

To get things started though, Tara shares how a standup comedy class at Miami Ad School influenced her definition of an insight.

Tara Lawall: The first time I sort of understood what an insight was was when I was in a standup comedy class actually at Miami ad school and we were learning about observational comedy [00:02:00] and learning about kind of like the Seinfeld trick. Like what's the deal with right? When you point out something to people that that's in sort of the collective consciousness, but then you just name it for the first time. That can be super funny to people, but that's sort of how I explain what an insight is. Something that everybody knows, but maybe nobody's articulated before to you. 

Chris Kocek: Oh yeah. I love comedy and I find comedians to be a great source of inspiration. The thing that I say with comedians though is that they don't have to solve the brand problem.

They point out the vignettes, they point out the, the foibles and the behaviors of people, but they don't then have to connect it to, and now here's how we solve that problem. It's just like, aren't we silly humans, basically. Do you have any favorite comedians? 

Tara Lawall: For some reason, the first one that just popped in my head was Te Nataro.

Chris Kocek: Mm mm-hmm. 

Tara Lawall: Uh, I love that she's so dry and so specific. I listened to Amy Puller's podcast. That's been one that's been on heavy [00:03:00] rotation lately. Mike Lia. Love him. Just big comedy fan. 

Chris Kocek: Yeah. Or as he talks about in one of his older albums, Mike Beski, people, you know, you didn't even try to say the name right.

You just, you just saw some letters and you went for it. Comedians are great. How do your briefs or briefings look different at Rethink compared to other places? 

Tara Lawall: I've noticed probably the biggest change at Rethink from all other agencies, I'd say in the briefing, and I think that's why some of the Rethink work does feel a bit different.

And I think it is the commitment to uncovering truths. And uncovering insights, like all briefs say, it needs to have a strong insight. What's the insight? What's the insight? The insight leads to the strategy, but I haven't seen as much of a dogged commitment to it as I see at rethink. We also do something where in addition to the brief, you'll get another document, which is cultural [00:04:00] sparks.

Chris Kocek: Mm-hmm. 

Tara Lawall: Which will be how do we uncover cultural sparks or cultural truths that are around the topic that is in the brief. 

Chris Kocek: Mm-hmm. 

Tara Lawall: So that kind of gives you more of a playground or a place to build off of. That will start to get you to what I spoke about earlier, which is like tapping into that collective consciousness.

Mike Dubrick, who's a CCO in Toronto, he always likes to say, how do you hit the boxes in the basement of people's minds? Like if it's a Heinz ketchup brief, how do you hit all the boxes in the basement of people's minds that they have of everything they've ever known about that brand or of ketchup, or of french fries or of hot dogs?

And when you're able to tap one of those things, then you have a really, really strong idea because your audience is already almost starting at the finish line with you. 'cause they already have that personal experience with it. Does that make sense? 

Chris Kocek: Yeah. I love the analogy and it, I mean, it makes me think of another analogy, which is like this sort of mind map of all of [00:05:00] these associations that you have.

So like, yes, ketchup may be at the core, but ketchup goes with french fries, it goes with hot dogs, it goes for some people with eggs. Goes in into lots of different directions. And so yeah, it makes perfect sense. It's a fascinating, uh, example, makes me think of inception. The boxes in the basements of people's minds.

Tara Lawall: Mm-hmm. 

Chris Kocek: What are a couple of cultural sparks, uh, when you think about, you know, certain briefs that you've worked on recently, are there certain cultural sparks that have lingered with you? 

Tara Lawall: Recently we worked on Kraft Mac and cheese, and this was something that we executed in Canada. But there's this insight that this came from a cultural spark where people, um.

Don't take the time. They're so excited to eat the product that they don't take the time to open the box properly. They just rip it open. That's a cultural spark that you may have seen on social or tiktoks of people ripping that box open. So something we do at Rethink a Lot is just take the insight and put it on display.

So we did an out of home campaign that just was the ripped open boxes with a [00:06:00] simple line. That's how you say how good the product is without saying how good the product is. And that comes directly from one of those cultural sparks. 

Chris Kocek: That's such a great example. We're a big Mac and cheese household over here.

And yeah, tearing open the box has led to some issues. 

Tara Lawall: Another one that we, we haven't done anything with yet. Nobody reads the in directions. If you're a mac and cheese family. Right, like, what's the last time you really read the directions of, of mac and cheese? You don't like, you know, you know it in your heart, you know?

That would be something that would come through from a cultural spark that kind of demonstrates brand love. But then what do you do with that insight? 

Chris Kocek: Mm-hmm. Well, we did a little experiment over here where we just had our kids make mac and cheese for themselves by themselves. No oversight. That was a little bit of a mistake because.

They forgot that you need to pour out the, um, boiling water with the, with the Mac. And so then they poured the cheese in and it just became like a soup. 

Tara Lawall: That's a, that's a gross soup right there. Yeah, it 

Chris Kocek: [00:07:00] was. But they learned, they, they did that one time and they learned never to do that again. So that there, you know, there's value in not helicoptering over the process and see what, what they make.

Tara Lawall: Well, they'll never make that mistake again. Right, 

Chris Kocek: exactly, exactly. 

Tara Lawall: That was another cultural spark in one of our decks, which is that that's usually. One of the first things that kids end up making themselves is mac and cheese. So what could we do with that? Like if that's a truth, how can we make that into something?

Chris Kocek: Now, do you use the word truth and insight interchangeably, or do you feel like insight has more than just the truth? 

Tara Lawall: I do, but I'm sure there's some strategists that would yell at me for that. I'm sure there is a nuance or a difference, but I think I probably use them pretty interchangeably. 

Chris Kocek: It's okay.

This is a safe space. You said you guys really kind of doggedly search for the truth. Are there any other. Techniques that you guys use to find those little moments, those little nuance moments, like the torn open box. [00:08:00] Are you doing a lot of social listening? Is it coming from focus groups or conversations with customers?

How else do you unearth these little gem moments? 

Tara Lawall: Yeah, it's a little bit of everything, right? So if it breaks into the categories of. Brand truth, cultural truth, audience truth, it's what's the best vehicle to get to any of those. So some of it can be from focus groups, some of it can be from consumer interviews.

Some of it can be from social listening. Some of it can be from brand history. Some of it can be from, you know, a long day of chat, g, PT and coffee, whatever. Whatever gets us there. I think we call it kind of a cultural spark, is when you know that you've hit one, you kind of feel it a little bit. Or it's almost like you're like, ah, that's it.

You know? I think it's many different places, many different techniques to get us there. 

Chris Kocek: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And do you have a couple of favorite questions for a client when you're really trying to break things open and figure out what the real problem is that they're trying to solve? [00:09:00] 

Tara Lawall: Yeah, that can be a bit of a sensitive question sometimes I think, because there's typically 40 meetings behind getting to that place.

So if we are then questioning something that has been the result of 40 meetings, we have to sometimes tread a bit lightly and have some empathy for the process. So there's something that I think about a lot and we do a lot at Rethink, is how do we build the relationship before we even get to that conversation?

We do something at Rethink, which is called the relationship accelerator, that before we even kick off a project with a client, we do a bit of a therapy session where we all bring our past trauma from any previous client. Agency relationship and we talk about pet peeves and we talk about what's worked well and what hasn't.

And I think when you start by building the relationship with the client, when you then need to have a deeper, real conversation that needs to really question, is this truth actually a truth? Are we really solving the right [00:10:00] problem here to get you to your business objective? Then everybody kind of starts from a place of safety.

So you can more effectively have those tougher conversations. So is there one specific question? It probably is like, but is this really the truth? Is this really the problem you're trying to solve but you sort of need to build a relationship up into a place so that, that question is in met with resistance?

Chris Kocek: Mm-hmm. Well, I love the analogy of a therapy session, right? 'cause therapy is usually a mirror. That's held up to you. Right? And, and therapists have this wonderful kind of juujitsu way of asking questions or, or saying, well, what do you think about that? Can you think of something that happens in one of these, uh, relationship accelerators or therapy sessions that has reliably brought out kind of that more vulnerable side from a client?

Tara Lawall: A lot of times it's just, it's just good tells, right? Like if there's a client that says, listen, like [00:11:00] we really, really don't like when people go over our heads and talk to the CMO without talking to us first. If that's a common theme that can be, um, very telling in some moments. Like, well, why has that been a pattern in the past?

Right. And then that can be something that you might wanna get ahead of in the way that you sell work and the way that you position work. But also it's just when that moment comes, you know, not to do it. 'cause you know it's gonna be a hot button issue. 

Chris Kocek: And by the way, I'm sorry, I should know this. Do you go by Tara?

Or Tara? Tara. Tara. Okay. I, I actually go 

Tara Lawall: by Tara, but that's like, 'cause I'm from Philly and you know, 

Chris Kocek: Tara, 

Tara Lawall: I, I'm not really from Philly. Like my parents are from Philly. I grew up in Newtown, Pennsylvania, now north of Philly. 

Chris Kocek: Mm-hmm. But 

Tara Lawall: you know. Inherited my parents' accent. So. 

Chris Kocek: Nice. Yeah. Nice. Well, so going back to mac and cheese for a second, you guys have done a lot of work with mac and cheese.

You've found these different cultural sparks. Is there a particular business [00:12:00] challenge that they came to you with? Like, you know, we need to connect with Gen Z customers. We need to focus on these little mini cups, or we need to do something else. What's the business challenge that you're, you're working on with mac and cheese?

Tara Lawall: Yeah, so. Kraft Mac and cheese's challenge is pretty clear. They're losing people at the shelf where people are either going for the store value brands or they're going for like the slightly fancier ones like Annie's Mac and Cheese are the ones that cost a little more, but maybe promise all sorts of bells and whistles in the same box.

It's kind of hard 'cause they're getting hit from both directions. But the cool challenge I think with a brand as iconic as Kraft Mac and cheese is it becomes a brand love challenge, right? Like, how do you remind people how iconic this brand is, how much they love this brand, and how do you really make a big statement in a really, really big brand way so that next time they're at the shelf, you're able to appeal to their [00:13:00] heart and not their head?

So as it comes to advertising or you know what the job to be done is, it's classic and as fun as it gets. 'cause it's a big brand challenge. 

Chris Kocek: Mm-hmm. How about brands that are not so iconic, that are more challenger brands that don't have that number one or maybe even number two position in consumers heads.

What do you do to help them, quote unquote, punch above their weight? 

Tara Lawall: For me as a writer's writer, I like, I love just going after tone then like being a challenger brand, especially being from Philly, when you can lean into a number two tone and that is a great excuse to do something that is a little bit louder because you have nothing to lose.

So it can be very fun to take a chance, or there's a good reason to do something that's riskier, more breakthrough because you need to punch above your weight. So you can't afford to be quiet. You can't afford to be boring. 

Chris Kocek: Yeah. Do [00:14:00] any examples come to mind for bringing that tone and just going for it?

Tara Lawall: The first thing that came to mind is it's less of a challenger brand and more of just a brand that people hadn't heard of, which is this brand epidemic sound that we worked on at Rethink that we really leaned into tone as something to help us break through. Epidemic Sound is a stock music track library, which you probably haven't heard of, um, unless you've been laying a bunch of tracks down on some videos you've created.

They're pretty huge, but they're not like a household name and. With them. We took a lot more of a strong tone of voice because we needed to break through and we needed to speak to creators. 

Chris Kocek: And what was the approach in terms of you, you did some research, you talked to different people. How did you get to that unexpected place that led to the campaign?

Tara Lawall: Sure. The big challenge with epidemic sound is that nobody has a strong feeling towards which stock music [00:15:00] library versus another one. They kind of just used the one maybe they used before, maybe the one that they had a promotion for, like, or which one has the most expansive library. There's no real brand connection.

So we tried to go for what would be a truth that we could connect with this. And what we went with was, when you're a creator, when you're trying to create something, your music can put a real feeling on what you're making. It can dramatically change the feeling of the piece. So the platform we we went with was “Feel it. Find it.” And the big project we did for them was this three city huge contextual campaign that was social and digital and in, in real life where we went to specific places in New York City, we, we had things in the subway and we had things on street corners, and we would pick specific insights about specific places and then we would find the perfect track of music.

That would pair to that moment and that place and that insight. And then people could scan with their phone, the [00:16:00] QR code, and hear the sound of that moment, that corner and feel the feeling that we meant for them to feel on that corner using music, competing with stock music versus not stock music.

You're really just speaking to the way that people feel about music and the way that people feel in a moment. So it was a really cool way to like, as you're saying, like punch above your weight. It like completely just decided to have like a human connection with people in a moment about something that they could feel in that moment.

Chris Kocek: Was there a particular corner that you were fond of in terms of the music that was connected to that corner or that place or that moment? 

Tara Lawall: Uh, so many. They always started with find the perfect soundtrack for…I guess this one resonates to me being a long time New York resident, but, uh, find the perfect soundtrack for the absurdity that you've been priced out of an abandoned sugar factory.

So if you have that billboard next to an abandoned sugar factory, and then you can hear the sound that goes with [00:17:00] that moment, it was so much fun to just figure out like what would be the perfect sound, which would give that a bit of humor. But also the bit of, um, specific sadness of that feeling. But of, of course, since it's a sugar factory, also a sprinkle of sweet.

[Epidemic Sound]

Chris Kocek: What's another sound or musical moment that you particularly loved? 

Tara Lawall: It was three cities, New York, LA, and London. A very LA Insight find the perfect soundtrack for pretending not to notice a minor celebrity in the produce aisle. So if you imagine that one in a grocery store with a QR code, what is that exact sound?

It would sound something like this.[00:18:00] 

[Epidemic Sound]

Chris Kocek: You had mentioned in a previous call that there's a sound associated with doom scrolling. 

Tara Lawall: Yeah, yeah, yeah. As, as part of this campaign, we also had some really fun social posts as well that spoke to specific insights about how people. Show up digitally or on the internet, or what's the sound of those moments as well.

And one of them was doom scrolling. Find the perfect soundtrack for doom scrolling.

[Epidemic Sound]

Tara Lawall: We did 500 of these, right? We really tortured slash delighted the copywriters working on this. So when you have that many executions, you can really, really stretch the tone and you can really take some chances with the things that we made. [00:19:00] 

Chris Kocek: That's awesome. How did it do? Did it do what it was meant to do? Did it get everybody to be checking out epidemic sound? 

Tara Lawall: It did extremely well. I mean, I think the client was very happy. We also picked up a silver Cannes Lion for this campaign, which was very cool for a brand that nobody had really heard of before that. Especially with epidemic sound, getting an advertising award is almost part of the strategy because you're trying to target creators and you're trying to target creatives in advertising.

So that was really helpful because it put epidemic sound on the map for people who would be choosing epidemic sound for future campaigns. It was a very good strategy and has done really well for their business as well.

Chris Kocek: Now, you mentioned coming from Philly. 

Tara Lawall: Yes. 

Chris Kocek: Now you're in New York. 

Tara Lawall: Mm-hmm. 

Chris Kocek: Are there any expressions that people use in Philly that they just don't use in New York?

Tara Lawall: There's the fam, you know, the very well known John. Have you heard of John just in [00:20:00] interchangeably with, instead of saying thing. 

Chris Kocek: Oh, no, I haven't. Oh yeah. 

Tara Lawall: I mean, you gotta watch more. It's always sunny in Philadelphia. That'll give you everything you need to know about Philly in one television show. Just kidding. Or Rocky. That's the prescription. If you wanna know about Philly, 

Chris Kocek: I've definitely watched Rocky. In fact, I just re-watched it with my kids. Ah, it was their first time. It was my. Probably 20th or 30th time. 

Tara Lawall: Yes. Yeah. 

Chris Kocek: Did you know that scene on the ice skating rink? 

Tara Lawall: Mm-hmm. 

Chris Kocek: They were supposed to have like hundreds of extras. Nobody showed up. And so they were just like, okay, we need to change some things in the script. We need to move quickly. We've only got this space for so much time. I actually think it works so much better. It's so much more intimate. 

Tara Lawall: Yeah. 

Chris Kocek: To just have them on the ice by themselves and that guy in the background yelling eight minutes.

Tara Lawall: Yeah. 

Chris Kocek: Yeah. You know? 

Tara Lawall: Yeah. Kind of more stark works better for that. 

Chris Kocek: So, John, they say, John, like, you know, pass me, pass me the salt. Pass me the John pass me 

Tara Lawall: [00:21:00] that, John? Yeah. No, pass. JAWN. 

Chris Kocek: JAWN. So anything can be a A John. 

Tara Lawall: Anything Can be a John. Yeah. No. Like literally. And like, yeah. What's, what's up with that, John?

Yeah. Hand me that John. What's going on with this, John? Yeah. Yeah. I feel so embarrassed talking about this, but yes, John is. John is big in Philly. 

Chris Kocek: Well, there you go. I I never known that that was a thing in Philly. I've been to Philly, of course. When I got to Philly, I ran, what's it called? Is it called The Miracle Mile?

What's that thing that he runs up the steps, 

Tara Lawall: the art museum steps. 

Chris Kocek: Yeah. And just like everybody else, I jumped up at the top and now I think there's like a statue there, right there, there is. 

Tara Lawall: That's, that's high art in Philly. That's rocky. It's got layers. 

Chris Kocek: It does have layers 

Tara Lawall: that John's got layers. 

Chris Kocek: Alright, so let's, let's look at, uh, another brand that, that you guys have been doing some work for, some exciting work for Doritos.

Tara Lawall: Yes. 

Chris Kocek: One of my favorite chips since I was a kid. What was the original problem or challenge that Doritos came to you with? 

Tara Lawall: So there is a [00:22:00] new flavor of Doritos, golden Sriracha flavor, and the challenge that they had with this flavor is explaining that it is spicy, but not too spicy. So some people heard sriracha and they thought, okay, that's not for me.

Like I don't really like super spicy stuff, so no thank you. But it's got a lot of sweetness in its profile as well. So the challenge to us was how do we get people to try this new chip that's spicy, but not too spicy? So we started to look into truths. We started to look into ideas, and one of the audience truths that came through.

Was that Gen Z doesn't really like things that are too explicit, like 41% of Gen Z gets turned off when things get a little too sexual in movies or in books or in anything else. So that kind of led to this idea. Which was what if we were to create a adult film that never quite gets there. So we create a spicy but not too spicy adult film where there is [00:23:00] a plumber character who shows up to a house, but then actually just does the plumbing.

And during this film, you know, there's many fun characters that come in and out of the film, but um, everybody's eating golden sriracha Doritos. The plumber is played by Walton Goggins and he just fixes the plumbing and it's all sponsored by Golden Sriracha Doritos. So we created this adult film.

Premiered in the slipper room in Lower East Side in Manhattan. Walton Goggins made a surprise appearance and created a huge stir for this new chip. Did a full 360 campaign and got this audience, gen Z to consider this new chip and to really tell that story that it's spicy, but not too spicy. 

Chris Kocek: Mm-hmm. Well, it's that Steve Martin method of building tension, but not releasing the tension.

Right? 

Tara Lawall: Yeah. 

Chris Kocek: These days when I watch videos, I'm like, okay, I know there's gonna be a twist. I know there's gonna be something that's gonna be snarky or sort of unexpected, and I'm expecting the [00:24:00] unexpected. But in this case, it's like, Nope, we never get to that point.

[Doritos Ad]

Chris Kocek: Walter Goggins is really having a moment, isn't he? 

Tara Lawall: He sure is. 

Chris Kocek: White Lotus. Goggins goggles. 

Tara Lawall: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Chris Kocek: And now, now the Sriracha campaign. 

Tara Lawall: Yeah. He was a complete joy to work with. You know, they say never meet your heroes, but he was so fun and was just the perfect casting for a sexy, but not too sexy plumber.

Chris Kocek: Well, you know, it's funny, we worked on a, a brand of bean chip. One of the things we found out from customers was we would ask, you know, so what flavor of chips do you like to get? You [00:25:00] know, just get a little bit of background research and people would say, I, you know, I, I get the purple bag. Mm-hmm. When talking about Doritos, they don't even know sometimes the name of the flavor.

Tara Lawall: Yeah.

Chris Kocek: They just know the color of the bag. 

Tara Lawall: Yeah. 

Chris Kocek: That's an interesting little tidbit. So they like things spicy, but not too spicy. 

Tara Lawall: There's even a word for it. In Gen Z, which is Swicy

Chris Kocek: Swicy? 

Tara Lawall: Yep. So that was another, this is a big, this is a big vocab day for you. It's, we got dogs, it's, we got swicy. 

Chris Kocek: I'm learning so many new words.

Tara Lawall: Yeah. You actually don't need to take any of them with you after this, after this chat. Yeah. So that was another sort of Gen Z. Insight was that with that kind of trending, that's why this specific flavor profile would perform well. 

Chris Kocek: Well, I'm a word nerd. Okay. And so I'm gonna ask, were there any other Gen Z expressions or terms of endearment that came up when talking with Gen Z, whether it's on Doritos or on some other project that you've worked on?

Tara Lawall: I'm a word nerd as [00:26:00] well. I actually have been joking with my friends lately, and I'm curious to get your take. Now I'm gonna ask you a question. 

Chris Kocek: Oh please turn the tables. 

Tara Lawall: I feel that if you're not from the South or from Texas, you should not use the word y'all. So this is my public service announcement. Thoughts? 

Chris Kocek: Well, so I'm originally from California, uh, but I've been in Austin for 15 years and I still struggle with the y'all part. Like, I'll, I'll say it sometimes, but I still kind of default to you guys. Or if I want to bring in my, my Bronx, you know, Youz guys. 

Tara Lawall: Yes. 

Chris Kocek: That kind of thing. But no, y'all is, uh, it's definitely a southern thing. So are people saying it now more in the north? In those Yankee states? 

Tara Lawall: because I think people are trying to not say you guys as much. They're trying to be more inclusive. So y'all is slipping in, but I, it's a hard no for me. So just, there's plenty of other words to use. But y'all is for the south. 

Chris Kocek: You could just say Youz, Say Youz. 

Tara Lawall: You could say, Youz, I mean, [00:27:00] yeah, from Philly.You definitely can, but it's, I wouldn't do that 'cause I'm a very classy lady. 

Chris Kocek: Well, we're talking about Gen Z and I feel like the rules of the game have changed when it comes to storytelling. Right? They seem to be in a totally different space when it comes to ads, content stories, you know, compared to 10 or 15 years ago.

I feel like stories are told very differently now because of the medium itself, the social media of TikTok and, and therefore the changing attention spans and the techniques that are now being used to hold our attention. So in your experience, what is the old way for telling stories and what's the new way?

Tara Lawall: I think maybe 10, 15 years ago, things being perfect all the time. The influencer was all about being perfect, and I think now it's completely flipped where it's about being, almost showing your flaws or being more real [00:28:00] and people calling bullshit a lot more, and not putting up with the fake veneer of what creators are allowed to be or not be.

Chris Kocek: Now, if you were to give a talk at a conference and you were giving advice to brands on what they should be thinking about or doing when it comes to telling stories in today's media saturated environments, what are three things you would tell them to start doing? 

Tara Lawall: The first thing when it comes to all brands is to really know your brand. And really how do you show up? And this kind of goes off. The last thing we're just talking about is you have to be able to show up authentically and show up with a point of view. Your mission doesn't have to be altruistic, but I do think you have to have a sense of what the brand is and live what that brand is, not just outwardly, but also inwardly.

I think that's very important because then at the speed of which you need to show up in culture these days. You can't be questioning who you are. The story that you're telling has to be consistent, so you have to really know who you are in order to show up consistently and often. So that's number one.

[00:29:00] The second one is sort of related to the first one, but it's something that we talk about a lot at Rethink, which is go then grow. You can overthink. How you show up in culture and then you've missed culture, right? So one of the things we do at Rethink is we really work with our clients and train our clients.

And how do you get something out quickly, see how it picks up in culture, and then grow it and invest in it from there? Take a chance on something, have an experimental budget in addition to your more planned media budget, and try to get some things going. Try to learn some things in culture by going and then growing it.

And this is the third one, which is stop using traditional testing methods if you don't wanna end up with traditional work. I, I could go on for, I don't know, about four hours, about how I feel about traditional testing methods, and it would be a podcast that literally no one would wanna listen to. 

Chris Kocek: Who knows? I mean, it could be like a long format podcast that just attracts all kinds of people. I mean, look at Ezra Klein's book on abundance. It's all about like policy issues and things like that, [00:30:00] and it's a bestseller. So let's turn this into a four hour podcast. Go for it. 

Tara Lawall: You know, traditional testing methods really drive me up a wall, so I think that would be my other challenge during this TED Talk I'm giving, just really interrogate what you're learning from these learnings.

I just did air quotes for everyone listening in their car, and if what you're doing doesn't make sense for the love of God, stop doing it. Try something else. Learning is great, but learning that doesn't make any sense is not great. 

Chris Kocek: Right. When I give talks or I'm sitting on a panel for, you know, colleges and stuff like that, one of the things I always want to ask is, what did you find out from your research, whether that's a survey or a focus group or something that made you say, huh, that's really interesting. I did not expect that. And if you don't have anything, keep digging. Because if it's something that everybody's like, yeah, we already knew that, then that's gonna be ho hum. But if it's got that [00:31:00] edge to it or that re-articulation, like you said earlier, that someone says, oh, I've never heard it articulated that way, then you've got something, 

Tara Lawall: Right. You don't just wanna be standing off the edges of things until what Your messages will not be able to cut through. 

Chris Kocek: Absolutely. So we can't talk about advertising and creativity and insights without talking about AI. Everybody's talking about it these days. So before we get to the speed round, what is an AI prompt or prompt stack that you've used recently that led to a surprising idea that you wouldn't have gotten to otherwise?

Tara Lawall: So this is a slightly different answer than what exactly you're asking, but have you ever asked AI. What it thinks about you based on everything you've ever asked it. 

Chris Kocek: I haven't, but I've heard some people who have done that. 

Tara Lawall: It's probably the most terrifying question you can ever ask a machine, and extremely fascinating what it says back to you.

[00:32:00] It's also very self-serving, right? Like, it's like the modern version of Googling yourself, seeing what comes back, and then from there, sometimes when I have to work on something quickly or get to an answer quicker, I'll often say to it. Give me an answer to this in the tone of Tara Leal. So based on everything I've ever written on the internet before, serve this back to me in my own tone of voice, which is, can also be a, uh, oddly revealing exercise as well.

Chris Kocek: Does it include the word John a lot in anything? 

Tara Lawall: I don't use the word John. I told you this.

Chris Kocek: All right, so now we're in the speed round. This is where some of the toughest questions come into play, so I hope you're ready. 

Tara Lawall: I'm ready. 

Chris Kocek: Okay. What's your favorite Dorito flavor? 

Tara Lawall: I have to say Golden sriracha Doritos. I have eyes only for Golden sriracha Doritos. 

Chris Kocek: Oh, come on. Really? On sale 

Tara Lawall: now. 

Chris Kocek: That's your favorite?

Tara Lawall: Uh, probably. Cool ranch. Cool ranch. Final answer. 

Chris Kocek: Very good. Very good. Uh, what was your favorite subject in [00:33:00] school? 

Tara Lawall: My favorite subject in school was probably a yearbook club. I don't know if I can call that a subject or theater. 

Chris Kocek: Mm-hmm. Extracurriculars. You like the extracurriculars? 

Tara Lawall: Extracurriculars, yeah.

Not the curriculars. Yeah. Anything where a group of people is coming together working on a creative project, which I think is wonderful 'cause that's what I do now. Those are my favorite subjects. It wasn't science 'cause Does anybody understand science? Not me. 

Chris Kocek: Not when they're younger. A lot of times it's very abstract and it leads to the common question, when am I ever gonna use this?

Tara Lawall: No. To me, I just, I, I tortured poor Mrs. Ashman. 'cause I was like, I need you to tell me why. She's like, it just is. And like I was like, I need to understand the why or I'm never gonna get this. And she was like, please stop. Staying after school and asking me these questions, please go home. 

Chris Kocek: Mm. So you had that desire to dig in the classic ask why five times?

Tara Lawall: Yeah. 

Chris Kocek: To get deeper. And then you, you led Mrs. Ashman to early [00:34:00] retirement. 

Tara Lawall: Yeah. I'm very sorry. I hope she's all right. I haven't checked in, but I tortured that woman. If 

Chris Kocek: you were talking to a five-year-old, how would you describe what it is you do on a daily basis? 

Tara Lawall: My son is six. So I have described this to a five-year-old, and I think the answer which I've given him is that I make commercials, which is a very bad answer.

Chris Kocek: You do so much more than that. 

Tara Lawall: Thank you. Because five-year-olds hate commercials, right? It's the things that disturb them from whatever they're watching. But that is the answer I've given, and I do think I need a better answer. 

Chris Kocek: Well, I mean, if it's the thing that they hate watching, you can say, I interrupt people for a living.

Tara Lawall: Yeah. Well, I, I, my and my daughter who's a little bit more, will push back on things when she's watching in a commercial interrupter. She's like, I know you make commercials, but could you try to make the other thing the part that it's interrupting us from? That would be better. Why don't you try to make that.

Chris Kocek: Kids are so tough. 

Tara Lawall: Yeah. 

Chris Kocek: They're our own worst critics. 

Tara Lawall: Hmm. Yeah. Very easily unimpressed. 

Chris Kocek: What's the most recent good book you've read, or if you don't have time for [00:35:00] books these days, a movie or a TV show that you've watched where you've just been like, everybody needs to see this. 

Tara Lawall: I am always reading a book, but very rarely one that I would recommend to anybody, but the book that I do recommend to everyone is this book Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert, and it is a book that is all about.

Creativity, kind of a love letter to creativity, but also it, it reframes what it means to live a creative life. And I think especially for people in our industry that are so output focused, it can be a really beautiful reframe in what it means to choose creativity in your day-to-day life, in a way that can help you live in more of a, uh, positive open space as it comes to creativity.

It's a great sort of therapy book for everybody in advertising and media. 

Chris Kocek: Does it pair well with Rick Rubin's a creative act? 

Tara Lawall: I think it's a great compliment to that. Very similar themes, which I think is kind of beautiful because it makes it seem like there might be a bit of a universal truth as it comes to creativity.

Chris Kocek: [00:36:00] What's a subject you recently got super interested in and you just went down a rabbit hole because of insatiable curiosity? It could be related to work, but even better if it had nothing to do with work. 

Tara Lawall: The real answer to that is I just got a kitten, uh, which is, uh, ruining my life. Don't get a pet. This is a PSA for everyone.

Don't get a pet, not a, not a popular hot take. Don't do it. My daughter manipulated me, which I'm very impressed with her for doing, but I was manipulated and I have researched if anybody has any questions about kittens. I've, uh, read the entire internet about kitten care. 

Chris Kocek: What persuasive messaging did your daughter use to convince you that this was a good idea?

Tara Lawall: She said to me about a year ago, she's like, I feel like there's a, a giant net on me that's preventing me from getting this kitten. And each of the reasons against getting a kitten is like a small weight. And she's like, I'm gonna work on each one of the weights one at a time in order to release them. In order to get this cat.

And I was like, it's a beautiful metaphor. [00:37:00] And then when she finally released all the weights on the net, she said to me, what this has taught me is that if I put my mind to something and I try really, really hard, I can make anything happen. 

Tara Lawall: Mm-hmm. 

Tara Lawall: Which could not be a better way of manipulating me. So she got, she got me good.

Chris Kocek: She's going places. 

Tara Lawall: She, and now we have a cat. 

Chris Kocek: Uh, a kitten. A kitten, 

Tara Lawall: which is what I've learned much worse and a harder than a cat. 

Chris Kocek: Yeah. So are you creating all of those, um, like obstacle courses in the house, in the apartment to have the kitten run around along the walls and 

Tara Lawall: it's a complete nightmare?

Yep. No, and I, I think the problem is, I, I love plants. I love, love, love plants. I'd say, um, almost all of my plants here are toxic, so now I need to get rid of all of my beloved plants. 

Chris Kocek: Oh, dear. 

Tara Lawall: Yeah. So that's the rabbit hole is the, is the kitten hole. Yeah. 

Chris Kocek: Learning everything there is to know about cats and kittens.

Tara Lawall: Yep. 

Chris Kocek: And how to tame them, which is nearly impossible. 

Tara Lawall: And if [00:38:00] anyone out there would like a kitten, uh, I have one, I have one to give 

Chris Kocek: along with a Polaroid picture of your daughter crying. 

Tara Lawall: My and, and about 40 plants. 40 toxic plants. I'll do a big scoop sale. Yeah. 

Chris Kocek: Nice. Is there a brand whose work you really admire or you think to yourself, that is so good?

I wish I was the one who had come up with that. 

Tara Lawall: I give so much credit to brands that can be consistently good over time. 

Tara Lawall: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Tara Lawall: I think the one that that comes to mind is Heineken. Mm.

Tara Lawall: I really, really admire how Heineken has done so many consistent, really cool brand acts. They did the pub museums, they've done pub succession, their consistency and their, something we talked about earlier, the consistency at which they point out really, really great truths and different truths, but all things that feel very authentic to Heineken.

Chris Kocek: And what's one of the most interesting jobs you had before you got into the work that you do now that has helped you [00:39:00] do your job better? 

Tara Lawall: So when I was four months old, my dad opened a delicatessen and pastry shop, and he sold it when I was 20 years old. So I basically grew up as a a deli gal. Uh, and I would say. Almost every lesson I've ever learned, I sort of learned at the deli things like how to fail, how to succeed, how to build a business, how to staff a business, how to do things you didn't wanna do and have to do them anyway. Like my dad could never find anybody to open up on Saturday mornings at 5:00 AM and he knew I was available.

So I still, it's burned in my brain of having to, in February, drive to the deli with your hands frozen on the steering wheel, and then walk into the walk-in freezer and get the bagels out for the morning and put them in the oven. That's a reveal that we are not making fresh bagels at the deli. 

Chris Kocek: But he sold it. So that's, that's in the past. 

Tara Lawall: Oh, it's over. But yeah, I think, um, it really just, I don't [00:40:00] know. It taught me about hard work and it also, we had a really good time working at the deli and how important it was to have the right group around you in order to, um, just have a, to have a good shift. 

Chris Kocek: And when you were waking up at 5:00 AM did you do the rocky breakfast, just crack a bunch of eggs and then just drink 'em and then go to the deli?

Tara Lawall: No, I wasn't, I wasn't chugging raw eggs to get me going at the deli in the morning. 

Chris Kocek: I wonder if that's colloquially known as a Philly breakfast, but probably not. 

Tara Lawall: It's more like scrapple, like if you haven't heard of scrapple, you're lucky. But yeah, scrapple is a pretty, uh, big staple in the Philly breakfast.

Chris Kocek: What is scrapple? 

Tara Lawall: See, it is good that you don't know that it's good for your life that you don't know what Scrapple is. 

Chris Kocek: But now I wanna know 

Tara Lawall: the worst parts of a pig are maybe all of the farm animals all in one. It's bad. 

Chris Kocek: Oh, okay. It's just a sort of combo meat meal. 

Tara Lawall: It's not great and I think you put, you put it on like sandwiches and Kaiser rolls, but yeah, no.

Okay. Wouldn't, wouldn't recommend it. Wouldn't suggest that you dive into this 

Chris Kocek: [00:41:00] Not a heart healthy diet? 

Tara Lawall: Surely not. Nope. [Laughter]

Chris Kocek: Okay. Okay. What's a piece of advice that you got early on in life or in your career that you still remember to this day or that you think of often? 

Tara Lawall: I have two for that. One of them was from the owner of Miami Ad School. I went to Miami Ad School in South Beach, and for some reason this quote was in the bathroom, but it was, it should be fun. Ron Seacrest was the guy who said that, so I love that. So, especially when it comes to advertising, like we're in this job because it should be fun. And then also the other one is from my dad, which is very simple.

But whenever things get tough or whenever anything is happening, he's always like, enjoy the journey. Just enjoy the journey. I think both him and myself are extremely driven and driven towards success and results. So it's something that we both have to remind ourselves a lot to just enjoy the journey. Look around, see who's around you. Have a good time. Appreciate the moment you're in. Enjoy the journey. 

Chris Kocek: [00:42:00] Yeah, it can get blurry in advertising, right? You're just running from one deadline or meeting to the next. And as Ferris Bueller said, if you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.

Tara Lawall: Uh, I think your life comes at you fast is the beginning of that quote. 

Chris Kocek: That's right. Yeah, that's right. And maybe we'll, we'll end with,

Tara Lawall: yeah, that's a good John. 

Chris Kocek: All right. Well thank you so much, Tara, for taking the time to share your experiences in the deli in the Philly 

Tara Lawall: Oh yeah. 

Chris Kocek: And at rethink in terms of how you guys rethink things, not overthink things. You could have called it overthink, but you called it Rethink. 

Tara Lawall: Yeah. Be a terrible name. Yep. 

Chris Kocek: And, and you guys are doing great work over there, so please keep doing what you're doing.

Thanks again to our guest, Tara Leal from Rethink. If you want to connect with Tara, you can find her on LinkedIn. If you enjoyed today's episode, [00:43:00] please give us five stars on your favorite podcast platform and share it with colleagues and clients who could use some inspiration. Just send them a link and say, “You see! This is what I'm talking about, insights!”

If you're looking for even more ideas and aha moments. Head over to chriskocek.com. There you can find some of my newest online courses, case studies, and creative exercises. You can even sign up for one of my hands-on workshops where I show you firsthand how to build effective insights faster. The workshops are great for helping with new business pitches and for creating culturally contagious campaigns.

Special thanks to Megan Palmer for editing, sound mixing and production support. Until next time, keep looking for patterns, finding contradictions. And asking what if more often.